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List:       openbsd-mac68k
Subject:    Re: Expectations for a performa (was [tech]Re: gcc 3.x with Openbsd src   tree)
From:       Nick Holland <nick () holland-consulting ! net>
Date:       2003-02-11 20:51:36
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Joel Rees wrote:
> > The internal HD is not going to be useful.
> 
> I was kind of expecting that. Had initially thought to try putting root
> and some swap on it, but I've been reading about the internal drives.
> 
> > Unfortunately,
> > mac68k/OpenBSD seems to have problems with multiple HDs (macOS on the
> > small drive and OpenBSD on the external *might* work, I don't recall
> > if I have tried it).
> 
> Hmm. Are you saying I should go looking for a 2G raw drive I can replace
> the internal drive with, or are you suggesting I may end up pulling the
> internal drive altogether?

It isn't an "internal/external" issue -- it is a "one drive/two drive"
issue.  It seems, under most circumstances, when you put the second
drive on the Mac, the system goes strangely unstable (i.e., it doesn't
choke and die when it sees the second drive, it might boot, then crash
well through the mkfs on the second drive, or after you get the system
up and running, it will just choke and die in ways that didn't make me
think "problem with second drive" -- or even "disk system problems" at
all.  Remove the drive, system goes solid...

External drive without internal drive works.  

Internal drive with MacOS, external drive with OpenBSD?  No idea. 
gonna have to test that... 8)
 
> > OpenBSD/mac68k is reported to require the FPU.  My testing sometime
> > back indicated this was true only for INSTALL -- the installer choked
> > on my LCIII (no FPU) with a cryptic error message, but if I installed
> > on the Quadra 610 then moved the HD to the LCIII, it worked fine.
> 
> Ouch.
> 
> > Past tense, however -- some time back, newer versions of OpenBSD quit
> > working on the LCIII and my IIsi (which I *do* have a FPU in (add-on
> > on the NIC).
> 
> Ouch, twice. So, I'm probably looking at needing to pick up a 68882 on
> eBay?

Conscience prevent me from encouraging the purchase of new stuff for
Mac68k. We won't talk about the money, time and storage space I've
spent on
Mac68k hardware lately...  8-)

> > You don't indicate what if any ethernet card you have -- you may also
> > have trouble with that...
> 
> Yeah, I don't have one for it. I have a card in my p630, but it is not
> on the list of supported cards, IIRC. I dropped it into the p550 while I
> was playing with netBSD, and netBSD sensed and identified it, but I
> couldn't get netBSD up far enough to try talking to it.

Performa 630...IDE drive.  Supposedly supported with a SCSI
drive...not sure what kind of NIC you might have...

> > So, potential problem points:
> > * performance
> > * no FPU
> > * May not work anyway on your system (or may work fine)
> > * Network adapter.
> >
> > > How long can I expect
> > > it to take to get up on such a box, if at all?
> >
> > Days. 8)
> > (if at all)
> 
> Great. Thanks for the warning.
> 
> >
> > The key with Mac68k is have other things to do... You start something,
> > walk away, do something else, come back, start the next step, walk
> > away, do something else...  This results in not overly disrupting your
> > life, but it may take days to get the machine loaded and
> > configured...and a pad of paper to write down where you currently are
> > in the process is probably not a bad thing. 8)
> 
> And here I was feeling a such a loss of self-esteem because netBSD took
> so much time. 8-p

I used to be (supposedly) one of the best Macintosh techs in the area
-- granted, that was a LOOOONG time ago, and my hands-on pretty much
ended just before the PPC Macs first came out -- however, this is
applicable knowledge for OpenBSD/mac68k.  I think the first time I set
up OpenBSD/mac68k, I squandered much of three days on it.

For reference: the first time I did OpenBSD/sparc, I had *never*
touched the power switch on a Sparc.  Still, I managed to print
INSTALL.sparc, pull the case apart, hook up a serial console, replace
the existing drives with new(er) ones, and get OpenBSD/sparc loaded on
it in two hours (and something like another 30 minutes for the ssh
keygen process 8).  That was a Sparcstation 2...and I wasn't going for
a speed record...

> > I tend to do things on a twice-a-day system with the Mac68k's -- check
> > on 'em in the morning and again in the evening to see if they are
> > ready for the next step.  My building scripts include e-mailing me
> > when the job is done (and when the job began, so I can make sure when
> > I tell war stories that I have my facts right. 8)
> 
> Good idea. Too bad that won't work before I get the system up and
> running the first time. Or are you talking about Applescripting the mail? 8-))

uh, no. 8)
 
> > > I'd probably have to do
> > > something like use my iBook to drop the tarball onto the HD to load it.
> >
> > SCSI on your iBook?
> 
> USB to SCSI adaptor. Haven't bought it yet, partly because I'm aware
> it's a bit of a gamble, even under Mac OS X. I'd better make sure that
> one at least really does work with Mac OS X.

see above about the conscience thing. 8)
 
> > If you can do it, yes -- I used a old PowerPC
> > machine to set up HDs for my LCIII before I got the (cd booting)
> > Quadras.
> 
> >From recent threads, I assume you mean setting up the file system and
> unpacking the tarballs? No cross-compiling, right?

Actually, even less than that: loading MacOS on it.  I had a CDROM of
MacOS 7.6
and an LCIII at the time.  LCIIIs don't boot from CD...  After MacOS
and internet stuff was loaded on the thing, I moved the drive to the
LCIII.

I moved it back to the 6100/60 when I realized what Internet programs
like Netscape and Fetch were like on an LCIII. (dang.  some memories
are best left repressed)...

*might* have been able to unpack the tarballs.  Didn't try it.  No
idea what it would do.
 
> Do you think that would be possible to do the work from Mac OS X? Maybe
> using the old utilities under Sys 7.5 to label the openBSD partitions
> and then trying to access them from Mac OS X? I've been kind of hoping
> that might work, because my iBook just barely has enough room for Mac OS
> X. If I could afford another iBook this would would be perfect to put
> openBSD on, but my wife would not want to use the command-line mail.

well, the reason it worked for me is I was using MacOS 7.6, which runs
well on both the Mac68k and early PowerPC systems.  The likelyhood
that all the VERY "naughty" MacOS 68k apps would run on MacOS-X? 
uh...let's say, I *hope* it wouldn't...
 
> Well that confirms what I pretty much expected after playing with netBSD.
> I need to move ahead faster than that. I guess I'd do better to go get a
> used G3 or go to the DIY and put together an i386 box to learn on, and
> play with these performas when I know a bit more about what I'm doing.

Yes, if you are just starting out, OpenBSD/mac68k is one heck of a
learning curve...probably our most difficult install, and if you
bought a Mac for "ease of use" in the first place... *ahem*...

Nick.
-- 
http://www.holland-consulting.net

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