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List:       olpc-etoys
Subject:    [etoys-dev] Etoys developer meeting notes
From:       Bert Freudenberg <bert () freudenbergs ! de>
Date:       2010-04-19 21:20:01
Message-ID: 66801120-5511-4B52-814C-799B9F379283 () freudenbergs ! de
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Hi folks,

we just had another nice chat on #etoys. This week, Derek O'Connell joined, famed \
Audio/Video Linux Scratcher :) 

* Karl (single-mom) and Bert (triple-dad) talked about the Monticello-based updates
* Tim brought up release priorities and timing. Fixes, DrGeo and translated \
Quickguides are going to be in for sure, the rest depends on if someone finds time to \
work on it. We'll be wiser closer to the release (tentatively between mid-june and \
                mid-august).
* auto-updating would be nice, but we do not know how to make it work for all \
                platforms. If someone has ideas, please speak up.
* there still are issues with the showcase server, but we need further data. If you \
                notice something odd please report on the tracker.
* Derek ("matmo") talked about camera/video issues. Wants to switch Scratch over to \
the V4L plugin because it has more knobs to twiddle. OTOH, Scratch's CameraPlugin \
                works on platforms other then Linux, so maybe that would be nicer for \
                Etoys?
* Derek also suggested WolframAlpha as a possible data source for Etoys, in \
particular with the visualizations Ricardo is working on. If you have not done so you \
have to watch this intro:  \
http://www.wolframalpha.com/screencast/introducingwolframalpha.html

And then the hour was over. You are welcome to join next week, same place same time \
:)

Full log below.

- Bert -

<bertf> hi folks
<scottwal> hello
--> matmo (~chatzilla@doconnel.force9.co.uk) has joined #etoys
<ritaf> hi
<matmo> hi all (Derek O'Connell)
--> teefal (~teefal@c-66-30-2-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #etoys
*** Mode #etoys +o teefal by ChanServ
<teefal> hi everyone
<bertf> hi Derek
<matmo> hi Bert. I finally made it on time :-)
--> killring (~killring@76.226.178.204) has joined #etoys
<bertf> matmo: nice :)
<bertf> I just invited folks from #squeak ...
<teefal> great
<teefal> i'm sitting here in cambridge with adam holt of OLPC
<bertf> ah. say hi :)
<sm> g'day all
--> karlram (~51aa9a7e@skylab.immuexa.com) has joined #etoys
<bertf> hi karl
<karlram> hi
<bertf> looks like we're getting some more participants :) 
<-- ohshima (~ohshima@208.49.99.3) has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
<karlram> could you use any of the stuff i did in the monticello etoys ?
<bertf> karl: the packaging, sure
<karlram> cool
<bertf> well did not use it yet
<walterbender> hi all
<karlram> hi
<bertf> hi walter 
<teefal> adam says hi everyone
<karlram> hi
<bertf> karlram: we're going to need to apply your partitioning
<karlram> ok
<bertf> before we can really switch to the MC updates
<karlram> you need changesets?
<teefal> -- SQUEAKLAND SOFTWARE MEET START --
<bertf> I got one from your image
<bertf> teefal: meetingstarted already ;)
<teefal> (helps grep the logs)
<bertf> karl, did you look at my stuff yet?
<karlram> i have not had time yet
<bertf> no prob
<karlram> wife out of town and im a single mom :-)
<teefal> since we have a few more people this week, would it be good to discuss when \
to target for another general release? <teefal> summer, etc
<bertf> karl: I might not have time to work on it until next weekend either. we'll \
see <teefal> we had earlier discussed mid-june
<karlram> mid june seems early
<teefal> yes ... mid-august?
<teefal> gives us 4 months
<bertf> karlram: what do you want to get in for the release?
<karlram> we have talked about drgeo
<karlram> is that still a go
<bertf> yes
<karlram> nice
<bertf> we have changeset that hopefully will just work
<bertf> hilaire was here last week
<bertf> he said he also has some fixes
<bertf> but in principle this should still just work
<bertf> so I'm actually optimistic about an early deadline, not much stuff in the \
pipeline we have to wait for :)  <bertf> teefal: did you file something about the \
load/save issue? <teefal> my personal priorities:    1) new load & save boxes,   2) \
new visuals for paint box,  3) new visuals for object catalog,  4) better OOBE \
(out-of-box experience (aka, home and gallery),  5) auto-updating <bertf> this came \
up on the sugar list again today <karlram> there a quite a few bugfixes
<karlram> teefal : good list
<bertf> karlram: I'm aware of about 10 that are ready to go
<matmo> I'm looking into any AV issues on Linux versions of Squeak, Scratch & Etoys \
this week, first on desktop, then on the XO <teefal> are there any "big features"  ?
<teefal> other than dr geo
<karlram> is there a "target" we can give bug fixes
<bertf> teefal: don't think so
<karlram> matmo: nice
<bertf> matmo: great!
<teefal> okay, so if this is what we have to do ... what do we call it?
<karlram> bertf : monticello ?
<teefal> also, is there any under-the-hood stuff?
<teefal> like monticello
<bertf> karlram: what do you mean by "target"
<karlram> to mark a fix ready for a release?
<bertf> Monticello should not affect the user experience
<teefal> we have "etoys 5 and showcase"
<teefal> you want something more granular
<teefal> close = ready for release
<teefal> resolve = ready for test
<karlram> is next release etoys 5
<teefal> http://wiki.squeakland.org/display/sq/Process
<teefal> that's the question, karl
<teefal> let's say we manage to do this
<teefal> new visuals for home, paint, object catalog, load & save boxes
--> ohshima (~ohshima@adsl-76-214-9-179.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net) has joined #etoys
<teefal> same functionality
<teefal> doesn't feel like a major release
<teefal> but from a documentation standpoint it is
<teefal> at least a screenshot standpoint
<teefal> load/save will be different a bit in functionality
<bertf> provided anybody is going to work on your wish list
<karlram> it would be nice if the paint visuals would be easier to add functionality \
to <teefal> yeah, i'd like several extensible options
<teefal> some kind of gallery like thing ... object catalog like thing ... that's \
extensible for updates outside the release <karlram> bertf: that is the question
<teefal> could be part of auto-updating
<bertf> I'm still undecided if a major release number is warranted. but it does not \
hurt to decide later when we know better what is going to be in the release <teefal> \
okay, we could call it etoys 2010 for now :) <karlram> teefal: then we have plenty of \
time <bertf> teefal: as long as you don't go through the tracker and trash all \
priorities I'm fine with whatever you call it for now <teefal> i see this release as \
smoothing things out for the users <teefal> making it easier, more appealing, easier \
to update, etc <teefal> finessing
<teefal> easy to get to the point where you like it
<teefal> get them well past "now what?"
<karlram> the new quickguides are a must
<bertf> karlram: that goes without saying
<teefal> a mechanism for auto-updating those as well as translations?
<bertf> though I did list translations as #1 priority last week :)
<bertf> teefal: I don't see auto-updating as a necessity
<teefal> hey bert, is there any kind of jabber stuff in etoys now?
<teefal> or squeak?
<bertf> there isa package for jabber IIRC. bnot in Etoys
<teefal> auto-updating for translations is a big deal from my end
<teefal> if possible
<teefal> getting the translations going on 200 to 2000 laptops in haiti :)
<teefal> with new ideas coming in regularly
<teefal> "Would you like to download the latest translations?"
<teefal> etc
<bertf> you could put translations in the XO bundle
<bertf> and SUgar has a mechanism for updating those
<bertf> but implementing a general update mechanism that works on all platforms? very \
hard. <teefal> well, bert, what do you think?   independent of who does work?
<bertf> think about what?
<teefal> ah, sorry, was answering to a line above
<teefal> got lost in the scroll
<ohshima> For easier use and more appealing etc., fixing the showcase server would be \
good, too. <teefal> what specific fixes, yoshiki?
<teefal> okay, well, send an email, gotta continue my talk with adam
<ohshima> JIRA would show them, right?  It takes 15 seconds just to look at a page, \
comments misfires all the time, project linking changes wrong project's name, no \
non-latin1 support, etc., etc. <teefal> pages should be loading faster
<teefal> non-latin1 is known
<teefal> misfires and linking still a problem?
<teefal> need more examples rather than say "all the time"
<teefal> examples
<teefal> doing my best ... bye all
<karlram> could we distribute bye
<matmo> bye
<karlram> sorry, bye :-)
<bertf> matmo: would you need any input form our side?
<bertf> from
<bertf> it would be cool to give the GStreamer stuff a second look, foe video \
playback <matmo> not yet thanks, just make me aware of any issues not logged. Found \
one problem in etoys video today <bertf> well there are many  guess :)
<bertf> I had it on my todolist to make xv overlay work for video playback, that \
would be awesome <matmo> gst would be nice but first v4l since it's use across the \
three (one stone, three birds :-) ) <ohshima> It does take 10-15 seconds still so \
giving examples is hard^^; On http://squeakland.org/showcase/project.jsp?id=9781, \
Richo's comment was supposed to go to my project, Also on \
http://squeakland.org/showcase/project.jsp?id=9781 my comment was supposed to go to \
my projects.  The name of http://squeakland.org/showcase/project.jsp?id=9783 was \
changed. <bertf> matmo: I thought Scratch used its own Camera plugin, the theV4L \
plugin? <teefal> okay, will look into it
<matmo> I will check out xv but overlay prevents doing interesting things like \
sampling colour at certain points (eg, simple movement detector) <bertf> matmo: \
that's the trick  - cheat but don't get caught ;) <matmo> yep, Scratch camera plugin \
use v4l internally. Scratch video protocol is simple but I have prodded John today \
about replacing it with the v4l plugin <bertf> oh, why?
<matmo> why what?
<bertf> I rather thought Etoys might switch to the Camera plugin 
<bertf> so we get camera on the other platforms too
<matmo> v4l give much more control over say brightness, contrast, etc
<bertf> but in Scracth you already have image filters ...
<matmo> doesn't help if the picture is crap to start off with ;-)
<bertf> IIRC the brightness controls in the v4l plugin are just post-processing the \
image too <matmo> and time consuming
<bertf> and the XO camera does auto-gain which I think can't be disabled
<matmo> possibly but camera capabilities vary, eg, on the N900 it can do focusing \
even though fixed lens <bertf> yes. I just think that's not exposed in the plugin
<bertf> anyway, great that you are looking into that :)
<bertf> strictly on Linux though, right?
<bertf> AV on other platforms could use some overhaul too ...
<matmo> is there a general preference for simpler video interface like Scratch?
<matmo> Linux, yep, only
<matmo> (me now almost completely weaned off windows)
<bertf> I wouldn't say preference, but so far the camera is underused in Etoys so a \
simpler vesion would be okay IMHO <matmo> ok, I'll takie it into account (but then \
none of the compexity should surface to end user, only optios) <bertf> but I have a \
strong preference for it working identically across platforms <matmo> (options)
<bertf> right
<matmo> Is this a good time to mention WA idea?
<bertf> if you feel so :)
<bertf> Randy was busy preparing math lessons for haiti
<bertf> guess that's why he did not respond yet
<matmo> Quick version: anyone interested in pulling WolframAlpha results directly \
into etoys? <matmo> re Randy, not yet but that explains why, thanks
<bertf> I don't think WolframAlpha is really well known yet, so you might have to \
explain more. but it would be awesome :) <bertf> Though I have no idea yet how this \
could look like in Etoys. <matmo> \
http://www.wolframalpha.com/screencast/introducingwolframalpha.html ... <bertf> but  \
for the table data stuff Richo is working on this would be an excellent data source \
<matmo> it's the inferences that a search returns that is most interesting, to me at \
least. Could be good to inspire children to expand their investigations into the real \
world <bertf> well, they could use a browser for that
<matmo> probably the difficult part is what to do with unexpected results but \
certainly Richo work would be good for presentation <matmo> browser yes, much better \
integrated don't you think? <matmo> otherwise cut&paste (then what?) distracting
<matmo> anyway, I don't want to hijack the discussion so I'll leave the idea sitting \
their until feedback <matmo> (there)
<karlram> i did some simple stuf for motion tracing \
:http://wiki.laptop.org/images/5/54/JournalMorph.005.pr <karlram> wrong, here \
http://wiki.laptop.org/images/6/6c/CamTrack-1.xo <matmo> karlram: thanks, I'll take a \
look <bertf> hehe. yeah,  we'd need an educator or a scientist really to come up with \
ideas to use those data properly in Etoys <karlram> ricos stuff is nice
<bertf> okay, one hour is up, anything more for today?
<karlram> anybody have loots of money to give me ? :-)
<karlram> he he
<matmo> only a couple of coppers. sorry ;-)
<bertf> karlram: what for?
<karlram> just to be able to work on etoys instead of my day job  :-)
<bertf> karlram: now wouldn't that be cool :)
<karlram> we can all dream
<karlram> :-)
<bertf> Thanks everyone! Next week, same place, same time :)
<matmo> ok, bye all
<karlram> bye all_______________________________________________
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