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List: odtug-java-l
Subject: RE: A small point of discussion; like the Titanic's ice problem
From: mario Youssef <marioy () optonline ! net>
Date: 2005-06-10 2:23:44
Message-ID: F001.005F768D.20050609191320 () fatcity ! com
[Download RAW message or body]
Steve,
Again; your effort is much appreciated. I can not express this enough.
* I can hardly wait for the upcoming release for the JHeadstart. I
guess I have to "purchased JHeadstart with the Supplement Option". It
would not be easy to sell it to the management, but I'll take that
challenge, I'll contact the purchasing Dept, although I still have
doubt.
* JClient is out of the question in our case, we're implementing
web displays. The issue is not just finding where to put the code in the
ADF; it's the effort and cost of man/hour comparing to the existing
Oracle Developer applications. New Apps we will not have problems cause
we did designed it so a tool like HTML-DB would do the Job, not to
mention .NET.
* The "menus, roles"; yes you took the words out of my mouth. Yes
that option is highly required. Especially if the task is trying to
migrate the existing production application that the users won't give
these option up.
So one additional future release and one enhancement request that has
been ignored in the initial release in addition to the reporting that I
have to come out with it outside JHeadstart/JDeveloper. That does not
give me much of a choice for setting the development standards for the
team. I'm leaning towards putting for 2006 Plan.
Best regards.
Mario Youssef
(973)495-7437
-----Original Message-----
Steve Muench
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 9:23 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L
JHeadstart has added the ability to generate some authentication related
features for their June 2005 update:
http://www.orablogs.com/jheadstart/archives/001133.html
When you say you "heavy validation and data entry" are you saying that
you have a hard time figuring out how to represent all of the same kinds
of validation "triggers" that you're using in Oracle Forms when trying
to build a system with ADF ?
Or are you saying that you are trying to build a "rich client" style
application for heads-down data entry?
Are your ADF applications that you are attempting using JClient for
Swing-style applications, or web displays?
By "menus, roles" are you asking for some kind of built-in "in the box"
schema for tracking application users, application roles, and some kind
of menu/navigation controls that show users only the functions they have
access to based on the roles they been assigned?
Thanks.
Steve Muench, http://radio.weblogs.com/0118231/
mario Youssef wrote:
Steve;
First I would agree with Mike; John; Robyn [ et. al.]. I would also like
to declare that your effort in the list is highly appreciated.
What we're trying to achieve here is real productivity; coming from a
very clear and effective development lifecycle (Designer/Developer). I
would like to commit to the Oracle offers in J2ee development. But what
Oracle is offering including the URLs in your email as well as the
traditional Oracle education "The management does not mind sending the
entire team"
We're facing a lot of difficulties trying to migrate/enhance our
existing legacy systems using what Oracle/Jheadstart/ADF/Jdeveloper.
None; I can say easily in production now. What we're trying to achieve
is an effective approach to re-producing our complex legacy system
(menus; roles; dynamic external third parties integration and heavy
validated data entry screen).
I don't want to put this on your shoulders; but what we're getting in
the URLs just does not cut it for us.
I'm starting to believe that's still too early to commit of the
Oracle/Jheadstart/ADF/Jdeveloper as a development environment. I guess
We have to wait until we see a clear approach.
By the way; in any of the list members was able to migrate/enhance the
existing legacy systems/ heavily validation and data entry? Could you
please give us some heads up hear. That would be highly appreciated.
I hope that explain my biggest frustrations; I'm guessing I'm not the
only one.
Appreciating your efforts.
Mario Youssef
(973)495-7437
-----Original Message-----
Steve Muench
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 4:48 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L
John,
Have you tried some of the resources on OTN here:
http://otn.oracle.com/formsdesignerj2ee
This targeted site saw great traffic in its first month after opening
its doors!
I also do an ongoing column in Oracle Magazine called DEVELOPER:
Frameworks that tries to speak to developers with Oracle Forms skills
who are trying to give the J2EE world a go. I keep a list of the
articles I've done so far here:
http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/tips/muench/oramag/index.
html
Lastly, I worked hard on an end-to-end, no-coding tutorial that helps
developers like yourself see what can be done with Oracle ADF for
declarative development. To show the absolute maximum that can be
achieved without code, it leverages the additional JHeadstart
Application Generator extension for JDeveloper 10g that is produced and
supported by an expert team of Oracle ADF consultants in Oracle
Consulting.
http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/tips/muench/jhstutorial/i
ndex.html
If you care to write me a note offline that explains what have been your
biggest frustrations in trying to get started with J2EE development
using JDeveloper, I can try to help you understand if we've made an
progress on addressing them for our upcoming 10.1.3 release.
Hope this helps.
Steve Muench, http://radio.weblogs.com/0118231/
John Flack wrote:
I know for sure that none of my J2EE code is near to production. I'm
finding the learning curve on this is about the longest of any new tool
or language that I've ever taken on, including Oracle Designer and that
is saying a lot, because I think Designer has a VERY long learning
curve. Fortunately, I found that you can be productive with Designer
even when you have only learned a small part of what it can do.
I'm baffled by why it is taking me so long to get productive in J2EE and
JDev. Am I getting to be the proverbial "old dog"? If so, I'm in
trouble, since I'm still at least 15 years from retirement, unless I win
big in a multi-state lottery or a casino. It seems to me that Oracle
has provided more sample code, more how-tos and more tutorials with JDev
than any other Oracle technology that I've used, yet I don't always
understand what I'm reading.
_____
Mike Openshaw
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 2:58 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L
Hack coding occurs everywhere and, if I was going based on my personal
and peripheral experience with Java projects, the success number would
be 25% (1 out of 4 actually made it to production). I wish it was
merely my likes and dislikes; I've actually witnessed bloodly miracles
done wirth Java and was particularly impressed with the skills of the
last team I dealt with. Unfortunately, the final result was not
reliably deployable and had significant performance issues in just a few
key areas. Unfortunately, those performance issues that would take
tremendous rework; part of the brilliant but 'hack code' stuff. It did
not go to production, the real test of success.
As for the Application Server requirement; HTML-DB is delivered- on the
10g companion disk- with a standalone HTTP server that works just fine
(not to mention the HTTP server in the databases themselves). You will
note that I put this- my favorite solution- at the bottom of the stack.
Hardly a sign of overwhelming personal bias.
BTW: after your time working on Java; is any of yours in production yet?
If so, I'll be happy to hear the details.
Don't Miss ODTUG NOW! 2005 - June 18-22, New Orleans Sheraton Hotel.
Hands-On Training, 100+ tech sessions, Oracle, development tool product
updates Register before May 30 to receive advance registration rate!
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Steve,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Again; your effort is much appreciated. I
can not express this enough.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<ul style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in' type=disc>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;tab-stops:list \
.5in'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>I can hardly wait for the upcoming release for the JHeadstart. I
guess I have <span class=GramE>to <span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>“</span></span></font><font
color="#333333" face=Georgia><span \
style='font-family:Georgia;color:#333333'>purchased JHeadstart with the Supplement \
Option</span></font><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>”. It
would not be easy to sell it to the management, but I’ll take that
challenge, I’ll contact the purchasing Dept, although I still have \
doubt.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li> <li class=MsoNormal \
style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;tab-stops:list .5in'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>JClient is out of the question in our case, we’re implementing
web displays. The issue is not just finding where to put the code in the
ADF; it’s the effort and cost of man/hour comparing to the existing
Oracle Developer applications. New Apps we will not have problems <span
class=GramE>cause</span> we did designed it so a tool like HTML-DB would
do the Job, not to mention .NET.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;tab-stops:list \
.5in'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>The “</span></font><tt><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>menus, \
roles</span></font></tt><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>”;
yes you took the words out of my mouth. Yes that option is highly
required. Especially if the task is trying to migrate the existing
production application that the users won’t give these option \
up.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li> </ul>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>So one additional future release and one
enhancement request that has been ignored in the initial release in addition to
the reporting that I have to come out with it outside JHeadstart/JDeveloper.
That does not give me much of a choice for setting the development standards
for the team. I’m leaning towards putting for 2006 \
Plan.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Best regards.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><em><b><i><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;mso-no-proof:yes'>Mario
Youssef</span></font></i></b></em><span \
style='mso-no-proof:yes'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><em><b><i><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;mso-no-proof:yes'>(973)495-7437</span></font></i></b></em><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> ml-errors@fatcity.com
[mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of \
</span></b>Steve Muench<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, June 09, 2005 9:23
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Multiple recipients of list
ODTUG-JAVA-L<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: A small point of
discussion; like the Titanic's ice problem</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span \
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><tt><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>JHeadstart has added the
ability to generate some authentication related features for their June 2005
update:</span></font></tt><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><tt><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://www.orablogs.com/jheadstart/archives/001133.html">http://www.orablogs.com/jheadstart/archives/001133.html</a></span></font></tt><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><tt><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>When you say you "heavy
validation and data entry" are you saying that you have a hard time
figuring out how to represent all of the same kinds of validation
"triggers" that you're using in Oracle Forms when trying to build a
system with ADF ?</span></font></tt><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">Or are you saying that you are trying to build a
"rich client" style application for heads-down data entry?</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">Are your ADF applications that you are attempting
using JClient for Swing-style applications, or web displays?</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">By "menus, roles" are you asking for
some kind of built-in "in the box" schema for tracking application
users, application roles, and some kind of menu/navigation controls that show
users only the functions they have access to based on the roles they been
assigned?</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">Thanks.</font></tt><br>
<br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<pre style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Steve Muench, <a
href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0118231/">http://radio.weblogs.com/0118231/</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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<br>
mario Youssef wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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</xml><![endif]-->Steve;<u7:p></u7:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u7:p> </u7:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>First I would agree with
Mike; John; Robyn [ et. al.]. I would also like to declare that your effort in
the list is highly appreciated.<u7:p></u7:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u7:p> </u7:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What we’re trying
to achieve here is real productivity; coming from a very clear and effective
development lifecycle (Designer/Developer). I would like to commit to the
Oracle offers in J2ee development. But what Oracle is offering including the
URLs in your email as well as the traditional Oracle education “The
management does not mind sending the entire team” \
<u7:p></u7:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u7:p> </u7:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>We’re facing a lot
of difficulties trying to migrate/enhance our existing legacy systems using
what Oracle/Jheadstart/ADF/Jdeveloper. None; I can say easily in production
now. What we’re trying to achieve is an effective approach to
re-producing our complex legacy system (menus; roles; dynamic external third
parties integration and heavy validated data entry \
screen).<u7:p></u7:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u7:p> </u7:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I don’t want to put
this on your shoulders; but what we’re getting in the URLs just does not
cut it for us.<u7:p></u7:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u7:p> </u7:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I’m starting to
believe that’s still too early to commit of the
Oracle/Jheadstart/ADF/Jdeveloper as a development environment. I guess We have
to wait until we see a clear approach.<u7:p></u7:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u7:p> </u7:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>By the way; in any of the
list members was able to migrate/enhance the existing legacy systems/ heavily
validation and data entry? Could you please give us some heads up hear. That
would be highly appreciated. <u7:p></u7:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u7:p> </u7:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I hope that explain my \
</span></font><tt><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span \
style='font-size:10.0pt'>biggest frustrations</span></font></tt><font size=2 \
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy'>; \
I’m guessing I’m not the only \
one.<u7:p></u7:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u7:p> </u7:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Appreciating your \
efforts.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u7:p></u7:p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u7:p> </u7:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><em><b><i><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Mario
Youssef</span></font></i></b></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<u7:p></u7:p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><em><b><i><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>(973)495-7437</span></font></i></b></em><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">ml-errors@fatcity.com</a> [<a
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com</a>] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Steve Muench<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, June 09, 2005 4:48
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Multiple recipients of list
ODTUG-JAVA-L<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: A small point of
discussion; like the Titanic's ice problem</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span \
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u7:p> </u7:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><tt><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>John,</span></font></tt><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier \
New"'><br> <br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">Have you tried some of the resources on OTN \
here:</font></tt></span></font><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><tt><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://otn.oracle.com/formsdesignerj2ee">http://otn.oracle.com/formsdesignerj2ee</a></span></font></tt><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><tt><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>This targeted site saw great \
traffic in its first month after opening its doors!</span></font></tt><font size=2
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">I also do an ongoing column in Oracle Magazine
called <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>DEVELOPER: Frameworks</span></b> that
tries to speak to developers with Oracle Forms skills who are trying to give
the J2EE world a go. I keep a list of the articles I've done so far \
here:</font></tt></span></font><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><tt><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/tips/muench/oramag/index.html">ht \
tp://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/tips/muench/oramag/index.html</a></span></font></tt><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><tt><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Lastly, I worked hard on an
end-to-end, no-coding tutorial that helps developers like yourself see what can
be done with Oracle ADF for declarative development. To show the absolute
maximum that can be achieved without code, it leverages the additional
JHeadstart Application Generator extension for JDeveloper 10g that is produced
and supported by an expert team of Oracle ADF consultants in Oracle \
Consulting.</span></font></tt><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><tt><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/tips/muench/jhstutorial/index.htm \
l">http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/tips/muench/jhstutorial/index.html</a></span></font></tt><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><tt><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>If you care to write me a
note offline that explains what have been your biggest frustrations in trying
to get started with J2EE development using JDeveloper, I can try to help you
understand if we've made an progress on addressing them for our upcoming 10.1.3
release.</span></font></tt><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">Hope this helps.</font></tt></span></font><br
style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]><o:p></o:p></p>
<u7:p></u7:p><pre style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Steve Muench, <a
href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0118231/">http://radio.weblogs.com/0118231/</a><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in;tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt \
229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt \
687.0pt 732.8pt'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span \
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br> <br>
John Flack wrote: <u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in;tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt \
229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt \
687.0pt 732.8pt'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span \
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy'><u1:SmartTagType \
namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" \
name="PersonName"></u1:SmartTagType>I know for sure that none of my J2EE code is near \
to production. I’m finding the learning curve on this is about the \
longest of any new tool or language that I’ve ever taken on, including Oracle \
Designer and that is saying a lot, because I think Designer has a VERY long learning \
curve. Fortunately, I found that you can be productive with Designer even when \
you have only learned a small part of what it can \
do.<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in;tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt \
229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt \
687.0pt 732.8pt'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span \
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; \
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in;tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt \
229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt \
687.0pt 732.8pt'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span \
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy'>I’m baffled by why it is \
taking me so long to get productive in J2EE and JDev. Am I getting to be the \
proverbial “old dog”? If so, I’m in trouble, since I’m \
still at least 15 years from retirement, unless I win big in a multi-state lottery or \
a casino. It seems to me that Oracle has provided more sample code, more
how-tos and more tutorials with JDev than any other Oracle technology that
I’ve used, yet I don’t always understand what I’m \
reading.<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in;tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt \
229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt \
687.0pt 732.8pt'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span \
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; \
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center;
tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt \
458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt'><font size=3 color=black \
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in;tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt \
229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt \
687.0pt 732.8pt'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span \
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma; \
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span \
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <a \
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">ml-errors@fatcity.com</a> [<a \
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com</a>] <b><span \
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Mike Openshaw<br> <b><span \
style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, June 09, 2005 2:58 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Multiple recipients of list \
<st1:PersonName u2:st="on">ODTUG</st1:PersonName>-JAVA-L<br> <b><span \
style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: A small point of discussion; like \
the Titanic's ice problem</span></font><u1:p></u1:p><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in;tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt \
229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt \
687.0pt 732.8pt'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span \
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u1:p> </u1:p><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in;tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt \
229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt \
687.0pt 732.8pt'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span \
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Hack coding occurs everywhere and, if I was going based on \
my personal and peripheral experience with Java projects, the success number would be \
25% (1 out of 4 actually made it to production). I wish it was merely my likes
and dislikes; I've actually witnessed bloodly miracles done wirth Java and was
particularly impressed with the skills of the last team I dealt with.
Unfortunately, the final result was not reliably deployable and
had significant performance issues in just a few key areas.
Unfortunately, those performance issues that would take tremendous rework; part
of the brilliant but 'hack code' stuff. It did not go to production, the
real test of success.<u1:p></u1:p><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in;tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt \
229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt \
687.0pt 732.8pt'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span \
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <u1:p></u1:p><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in;tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt \
229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt \
687.0pt 732.8pt'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span \
style='font-size:12.0pt'>As for the Application Server requirement; HTML-DB is \
delivered- on the 10g companion disk- with a standalone HTTP server that works just \
fine (not to mention the HTTP server in the databases themselves). You will \
note that I put this- my favorite solution- at the bottom of the stack. Hardly \
a sign of overwhelming personal \
bias.<u1:p></u1:p><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in;tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt \
229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt \
687.0pt 732.8pt'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span \
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <u1:p></u1:p><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in;tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt \
229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt \
687.0pt 732.8pt'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span \
style='font-size:12.0pt'>BTW: after your time working on Java; is any of yours \
in production yet? If so, I'll be happy to hear the \
details.<u1:p></u1:p><u7:p></u7:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt \
229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt \
687.0pt 732.8pt'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span \
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Don't Miss ODTUG NOW! 2005 - June 18-22, New Orleans \
Sheraton Hotel. Hands-On Training, 100+ tech sessions, Oracle, development tool \
product updates Register before May 30 to receive advance registration rate! <a
href="http://www.odtug.com">www.odtug.com</a> -- Author: Steve Muench INET: <a
href="mailto:Steve.Muench@oracle.com">Steve.Muench@oracle.com</a> Fat City
Hosting, San Diego, California -- <a \
href="http://www.fatcity.com">http://www.fatcity.com</a>
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