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List: odtug-java-l
Subject: Re: ADF vs the "dark side" was:Good and easy to follow book for
From: Lynn Guy <lguy01 () yahoo ! com>
Date: 2004-12-30 4:38:22
Message-ID: F001.005F111D.20041229203822 () fatcity ! com
[Download RAW message or body]
I've followed some of the suggestions and the help topics. They referred to a \
Microsoft driver different than the one I had so I installed the referenced driver. \
I was able to get it to connect (not without hassle but it finally worked). However \
I still have the problem that I cant test the Business Components, it fails with an \
error about inappropriate driver. So go figure.
Anyway, I'll check out these additional links and if I still have trouble will pursue \
it further next week. Thanks for the additional suggestions, from what I've seen I'd \
really like to get this working.
Shay Shmeltzer <shay.shmeltzer@oracle.com> wrote:
JDeveloper should be able to work with other databases. We have a few how-to's about \
this on OTN. And is you have problems you might want to try searching or posting on \
the JDeveloper forum on OTN as well. \
http://forums.oracle.com/forums/forum.jsp?forum=83
Also, remember that you can use various persistence solutions when using ADF - I'm \
guessing that you are using ADF Business Components right now, so these how-to's \
might be helpful: http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/howtos/bc4j/bc_foreign_db_intro.html
http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/howtos/10g/MySql/MySQL_and_BC_HowTo.html
As a side note - most of the Oracle Product Managers are on vacation this week, so \
you might need to wait until after new year to get answers to thougher questions :-)
Shay.
Lynn Guy wrote: Paul,
Well, I've hit the first snag. I went through your book and selected the exercise in \
chapter 8 on ADF business components.
- I have a db connection that set up easily and displays the tables and views in my \
schema
- However, when I try to do the exercises the wizards display not'ing. Worked great \
with Oracle but went "duh" against SQL Server.
- I figured out how to add the entity and view objects, links and associations \
manually and I think its all the same as the oracle example but \
slower
- When I go to test the components I cant find any way to get it to talk to the db.
I understand that the tool might not read the meta data from SQL Server as its not \
anything like what Oracle has. But it is disappointing that it wont connect to test \
the components once I built them by hand. Does this mean that the components arent \
valid and wont work in a deployed app? Darn, why wont it just use that connection?
later,
Lynn
Paul Dorsey <pdorsey@dulcian.com> wrote:
Lynn,
You are totally right. Building a Struts based page flow by hand is terrible. That \
is what JDev 10g fixes. The page flow diagrammer and the ADF extensions combine to \
make building Stuts page flows civilized. For example, if you use ADF the whole form \
bean area goes away. All you have to do is put in a single line of code that \
effectively says "I am using ADF" and then you can simply maintaine your elements in \
ADF and they are visible to Struts.
This also means that if you change things you don't have to do it in as many places. \
Please keep me posted on ADF against the evil one. ADF should work against any DB, \
but I would like to hear the experience of more projects that have done it.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 5:33 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L
Paul, Thanks for the reply and you're welcome.
The reason I'm so interested in Spring is that I've struggled through the manual \
building of a struts application and muttered daily "there must be a better way" and \
I cant quite get my mind off it. Also, in my opinion Struts goes so far and then \
just "stops". What I have read about Spring implies that maybe I get a little more. \
Dont know if I'm correct and it is pretty new but I'm impressed with the author and \
his intentions.
I am currently going through your book and have picked some exercises. I am working \
through them against an Oracle db. I will also work through them in SQL Server and \
possibly MaxDB as we may not be using Oracle (not that we dont want to). When I have \
done this in the past I got mixed results when going against a non-Oracle db. If I \
can perform the exercises against "the dark side" then ADF will be a strong \
consideration for future development.
have a nice day
Lynn
Paul Dorsey <pdorsey@dulcian.com> wrote:
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navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial}DIV.Section1 { page: Section1} Lynn,
Thanks for the kind words. (It is way better than being beat up.)
Spring seems to be trying hard. I am just skeptical of yet another start-up \
framework that may or may not survive. We are seeing enough evolution in the core \
architecture without also risking our careers on the fad technologies as well. In the \
last year we have evolved from JSP to JSP/Struts and now to JSF. The good times just \
keep on chuggen.
I am ok with people looking closely at ADF and then intelligently deciding that to \
build it all by hand will be more fun and not link them to any vendor. That said, ADF \
provides enough of the glue that to not consider to using it for J2EE/Oracle systems \
is professional misconduct. This really is a first rate piece of work that has too \
frequently gone unnoticed, even by the Oracle community.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:08 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L
I agree that asking about db connectivity on the struts list was "out of context" but \
the snotty holier than though attitude was a turn off. Especially when a lot of \
people seemed to be struggling with the fact that the open source community is a \
collection of stovepipes. I believe this is a large contributor to the failure of \
open source projects. Enough said, I agree with your comments.
If Spring at least provides an "approach" thats more than Struts provides (at least \
in my opinion.) I have to admit that it appears some of the "glue" between layers \
may be provided more by Appfuse than Spring. If you want generators and diagrammers \
ADF is going to be your choice. If you want to go fully open source then I think one \
should at least look at Spring and decide if there is value there for your project.
Writing all the redundant code in Struts drove me crazy so I'm eagerly looking for \
alternatives. I had to add a single column to a page and made changes in 5 places to \
do it. Anybody who says they can mitigate some of this pain is going to get my \
attention. If ADF can help then I'll seriously consider it. (We did brute force \
coding)
Just so you know, I've been using your comments on this list to pursuade our group to \
consider using ADF and to point up the importance of our understanding the \
ramifications of these choices. I dont claim to have all the answers and I fully \
respect your experience in this area. Feel free to straighten me out if I go astray \
as I try to figure this all out!
Paul Dorsey <pdorsey@dulcian.com> wrote:
To be fair to the Struts people, asking how to get from Struts to the database really \
is the wrong question. Struts has little to do with DB connectivity. It is much \
more focused on the controller layer.
Oracle’s extension of Struts connects it to the ADF which handles the DB connectivity \
but Struts is not about connecting to the DB.
If you asked about configuring a network on a DBA list you might get a similarly \
snitty response. You are asking about a topic that was outside of the scope of the \
technology.
I am not a Spring user. I have only read papers on it. It looks to me like it \
competes with both Struts and ADF. Though it is not really a competitor to ADF, it \
really just suggests an approach, where ADF “is” the approach with all of the needed \
generators/libraries. It seems to be a Struts-lite in the controller layer, but like \
I said I have not tried to build in Spring.
It clearly has less maturity/mindshare than Struts, it is yet another framework. It \
may take over the world, or just fizzle out, only time will tell.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 1:58 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L
The std java answer - because its new! The latest greatest!
Seriously, it was developed in response to the notion that java applications were \
plagued with exactly the problems you described... dont perform and poor \
productivity. I havent done detailed research on the mechanics yet but my impression \
is that spring provides the option to use it with other popular components such as \
Hibernate for example. That it can be configured and is DESIGNED to be used with \
these components. You dont have to fumble around trying to fit the puzzle together \
with a new home-grown solution for each project. Its also supposed to be EASY to \
substitute EJB for Hibernate at a later date without re-writing your application.
Also, when I started using Struts I subscribed to their list. Lots of traffic. It \
was not unusual for newbies to ask "how do I get to a data base?". The standard \
response was a VERY snotty "this isnt the place to ask" with no information as to \
where to go for information on this topic. Stovepipe thinking at its finest. The \
authors of Spring, if nothing else, acknowledge these issues. I for one, feel better \
with that "attitude" as these are problems that many applications have to deal with \
and good standard solutions will provide value.
Also, to be fair I think Spring is a different animal than Struts. Spring is an \
"application" architecture as where Struts seems to be focused more on the front end \
UI. Struts is more analogous to JSF than Spring. Maybe Spring is more analogous to \
ADF than Struts. You can use Spring with Struts, JSF, Tapestry, etc. I'm thinking \
Spring is a core and you can plug in Struts/JSF/Tapestry and then plug in \
Hibernate/JDBC/EJB etc. Its more of a "core" that provides clue for the other \
pieces. Struts is just one of the pieces and does not address any of the "glue" \
issues other than within its own narrower scope.
This "core" has been missing from Java open source projects and Spring is an attempt \
to fill that space.
HTH
Paul Dorsey <pdorsey@dulcian.com> wrote:
Spring is a alternative to Struts as a framework. As Struts seems to be the industry \
leader, why would you want to consider Spring?
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 12:38 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L
There's an e-book available at
http://www.sourcebeat.com/TitleAction.do?id=7
I cant say anything about it but it is written by Raible himself. They have been \
promising a couple of books for a while but they havent appeared yet.
VJaen <MRXP-TVJ@pancanal.com> wrote:
Hi Lyn,
Thanks for your suggestions; I've heard about the Spring Framework, do you know any \
book about it? They are writing the "Professional Java Development with the Spring \
Framework" book but the possible publishing date is in 4 months.
My project is very simple and it doesn't have a deadline, so we can take the chance, \
but learning something useful in the process.
Thanks!
Victor.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: ml-errors@fatcity.com en nombre de Lynn Guy
Enviado el: Vie 12/24/2004 02:53 p.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L
CC:
Asunto: RE: Good and easy to follow book for JSP/Servlet sites development
For a book one of the Struts "bibles" is Struts in Action by Ted Husted. Just to get \
my arms around it I used Mastering Jakarta Struts by James Goodwill (dec! ! ! ! ent \
example! s). Another interesting read is Jakarta Pitfalls by Bill Dudney and Jonathan \
Lehr. They have some specific examples and suggestions for struts.
I absolutely agree with Paul's suggestions, but... If you feel you need to go the \
open source route check out the Spring architecture and Appfuse. Just google on the \
names the project links should come up.
The main problem with what you are proposing to do is that the open source community \
has a banquet of stovepipes to do things. Everything from logging to front end to \
persistence (db access) and more. You have to take a number of products and install \
them, configure them (to work separately AND together and with your OS and your db \
and, and and) and then figure out how to USE them together to come up with a coherent \
"thing" to build your application with. The fellas writing this open source stuff say \
it takes them 6 weeks on a project to do this. Imagine what it takes if you arent an \
expert.! ! ! ! That small p! roject of yours just got a bit bigger. Spring is used as \
part of Appfuse. Appfuse is supposed to allow you to pick from the banquet (limited \
choices but probably enough for your project) and get it installed and working. If I \
were you I'd take a serious look at it. IF nothing else it provides a sandbox for you \
to see what is involved what some of the choices are.
Also, FYI, version 5 of MySQL will support stored procedures and functions. I think \
it will support some rudimentary triggers as well. But an interesting alternative for \
those of us who cant afford Oracle (which is now competitively priced with the "dark \
side" by the way) is MaxDB sold by the folks who brought you MySQL. Its about $1500 \
per cpu and fully suppprts stored procedures, functions triggers and transactions. \
You can find info on it on the MySQL site under products. Its being used by some \
pretty significant enterprises to run SAP. More than MySQL but less than the other \
alterna! tives! ! ! , maybe a good comp! romise depending on your need/desire for the \
extra features.
Good luck, you've bought a ticket for one of the wildest rides in the amusement park!
Desktop 2005 - You're Virtually There! February 15-17, 2005
Visit http://www.odtug.com for details. Computer + internet required.
Keynote Speakers: Bill Inmon, Sohaib Abbasi and Thomas Kurian.
--
Author: VJaen
INET: MRXP-TVJ@pancanal.com
Fat City Hosting, San Diego, California -- http://www.fatcity.com
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<DIV>I've followed some of the suggestions and the help topics. They referred \
to a Microsoft driver different than the one I had so I installed the referenced \
driver. I was able to get it to connect (not without hassle but it finally \
worked). However I still have the problem that I cant test the Business \
Components, it fails with an error about inappropriate driver. So go \
figure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Anyway, I'll check out these additional links and if I still have trouble will \
pursue it further next week. Thanks for the additional suggestions, from what \
I've seen I'd really like to get this working.<BR><BR><B><I>Shay Shmeltzer \
<shay.shmeltzer@oracle.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq \
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px \
solid">JDeveloper should be able to work with other databases. We have a few how-to's \
about this on OTN. And is you have problems you might want to try searching or \
posting on the JDeveloper forum on OTN as well.<BR><A class=moz-txt-link-freetext \
href="http://forums.oracle.com/forums/forum.jsp?forum=83">http://forums.oracle.com/forums/forum.jsp?forum=83</A><BR><BR>Also, \
remember that you can use various persistence solutions when using ADF - I'm guessing \
that you are using ADF Business Components right now, so these how-to's might be \
helpful:<BR><A class=moz-txt-link-freetext \
href="http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/howtos/bc4j/bc_foreign_db_intro.h \
tml">http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/howtos/bc4j/bc_foreign_db_intro.html</A><BR><A \
class=moz-txt-link-freetext \
href="http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/howtos/10g/MySql/MySQL_and_BC_How \
To.html">http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/howtos/10g/MySql/MySQL_and_BC_HowTo.html</A><BR><BR>As \
a side note - most of the Oracle Product Managers are on vacation this week, so you \
might need to wait until after new year to get answers to thougher questions \
:-)<BR><BR>Shay. <BR><BR>Lynn Guy wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE \
cite=midF001.005F1079.20041229002322@fatcity.com type="cite"> <DIV>Paul,</DIV>
<DIV>Well, I've hit the first snag. I went through your book and selected the \
exercise in chapter 8 on ADF business components.</DIV> <DIV>- I have a db connection \
that set up easily and displays the tables and views in my schema</DIV> <DIV>- \
However, when I try to do the exercises the wizards display not'ing. Worked \
great with Oracle but went "duh" against SQL Server.</DIV> <DIV>- I figured out how \
to add the entity and view objects, links and associations manually and I think its \
all the same as the oracle example but slower</DIV> <DIV>- When I go to test the \
components I cant find any way to get it to talk to the db.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I understand that the tool might not read the meta data from SQL Server as its \
not anything like what Oracle has. But it is disappointing that it wont connect \
to test the components once I built them by hand. Does this mean that the \
components arent valid and wont work in a deployed app? Darn, why wont it just \
use that connection?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>later,</DIV>
<DIV>Lynn<BR><BR><B><I>Paul Dorsey <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E \
href="mailto:pdorsey@dulcian.com"><pdorsey@dulcian.com></A></I></B> \
wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; \
BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1479" \
name=GENERATOR> <DIV><SPAN class=257222102-29122004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff \
size=2>Lynn,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN \
class=257222102-29122004></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN \
class=257222102-29122004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>You are totally \
right. Building a Struts based page flow by hand is terrible. That is what \
JDev 10g fixes. The page flow diagrammer and the ADF extensions combine to make \
building Stuts page flows civilized. For example, if you use ADF the whole form \
bean area goes away. All you have to do is put in a single line of code that \
effectively says "I am using ADF" and then you can simply maintaine your elements in \
ADF and they are visible to Struts. </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN \
class=257222102-29122004></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN \
class=257222102-29122004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>This also means that \
if you change things you don't have to do it in as many places. \
</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=257222102-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=257222102-29122004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Please keep \
me posted on ADF against the evil one. ADF should work against any DB, but \
I would like to hear the experience of more projects that have done it. \
</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=257222102-29122004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=257222102-29122004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff \
size=2>Paul</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN \
class=257222102-29122004></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-LEFT: \
5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV \
class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma \
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated \
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">ml-errors@fatcity.com</A> [<A \
class=moz-txt-link-freetext \
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com</A>] <B>On Behalf Of \
</B>Lynn Guy<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 28, 2004 5:33 PM<BR><B>To:</B> \
Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Good and easy to \
follow book for JSP/Servlet sites development<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV>Paul, Thanks \
for the reply and you're welcome.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The reason I'm so interested in Spring is that I've struggled through the manual \
building of a struts application and muttered daily "there must be a better way" and \
I cant quite get my mind off it. Also, in my opinion Struts goes so far and \
then just "stops". What I have read about Spring implies that maybe I get a \
little more. Dont know if I'm correct and it is pretty new but I'm impressed \
with the author and his intentions. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I am currently going through your book and have picked some exercises. I am \
working through them against an Oracle db. I will also work through them in SQL \
Server and possibly MaxDB as we may not be using Oracle (not that we dont \
want to). When I have done this in the past I got mixed results when going \
against a non-Oracle db. If I can perform the exercises against "the dark side" \
then ADF will be a strong consideration for future development.</DIV> <DIV><BR>have a \
nice day</DIV> <DIV>Lynn</DIV>
<DIV><BR><B><I>Paul Dorsey <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E \
href="mailto:pdorsey@dulcian.com"><pdorsey@dulcian.com></A></I></B> \
wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; \
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; \
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Lynn</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=navy \
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: \
Arial">,</SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy \
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: \
Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy \
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks for the \
kind words. (It is way better than being beat up.) </SPAN></FONT></P> <P \
class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; \
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT \
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: \
Arial">Spring seems to be trying hard. I am just skeptical of yet another \
start-up framework that may or may not survive. We are seeing enough evolution \
in the core architecture without also risking our careers on the fad technologies as \
well. In the last year we have evolved from JSP to JSP/Struts and now to JSF. \
The good times just keep on chuggen. </SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT \
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: \
Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy \
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I am ok with \
people looking closely at ADF and then intelligently deciding that to build it all by \
hand will be more fun and not link them to any vendor. That said, ADF provides enough \
of the glue that to not consider to using it for J2EE/Oracle systems is professional \
misconduct. This really is a first rate piece of work that has too frequently \
gone unnoticed, even by the Oracle community. </SPAN></FONT></P> <P \
class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; \
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT \
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: \
Arial">Paul</SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy \
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: \
Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy \
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: \
Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT \
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original \
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A \
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated \
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">ml-errors@fatcity.com</A> [<A \
class=moz-txt-link-freetext \
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com</A>] <B><SPAN \
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Lynn Guy<BR><B><SPAN \
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, December 27, 2004 4:08 \
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Multiple recipients of list \
ODTUG-JAVA-L<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: Good and \
easy to follow book for JSP/Servlet sites development</SPAN></FONT></P> <P \
class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" \
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I agree that asking about db connectivity on the \
struts list was "out of context" but the snotty holier than though attitude was a \
turn off. Especially when a lot of people seemed to be struggling with the fact \
that the open source community is a collection of stovepipes. I believe \
this is a large contributor to the failure of open source projects. Enough \
said, I agree with your comments.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" \
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" \
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">If Spring at least provides an "approach" thats \
more than Struts provides (at least in my opinion.) I have to admit that it \
appears some of the "glue" between layers may be provided more by Appfuse than \
Spring. If you want generators and diagrammers ADF is going to be your \
choice. If you want to go fully open source then I think one should at least \
look at Spring and decide if there is value there for your project. \
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" \
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" \
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Writing all the redundant code in Struts drove \
me crazy so I'm eagerly looking for alternatives. I had to add a single column \
to a page and made changes in 5 places to do it. Anybody who says they can \
mitigate some of this pain is going to get my attention. If ADF can help then \
I'll seriously consider it. (We did brute force coding)</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> \
<DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" \
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" \
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Just so you know, I've been using your comments \
on this list to pursuade our group to consider using ADF and to point up the \
importance of our understanding the ramifications of these choices. I dont \
claim to have all the answers and I fully respect your experience in this area. \
Feel free to straighten me out if I go astray as I try to figure this all \
out!</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" \
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" \
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" \
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" \
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><B><I><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; \
FONT-STYLE: italic">Paul Dorsey <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E \
href="mailto:pdorsey@dulcian.com"><pdorsey@dulcian.com></A></SPAN></I></B> \
wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; \
PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; \
MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt \
solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <P class=MsoNormal \
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: \
10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To be fair to the Struts people, asking how to \
get from Struts to the database really is the wrong question. Struts has little \
to do with DB connectivity. It is much more focused on the controller \
layer. </SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT \
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: \
Arial">Oracle’s extension of Struts connects it to the ADF which handles the DB \
connectivity but Struts is not about connecting to the DB. </SPAN></FONT></P> \
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" \
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P class=MsoNormal \
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: \
10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If you asked about configuring a network on a \
DBA list you might get a similarly snitty response. You are asking about a \
topic that was outside of the scope of the technology.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P \
class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P class=MsoNormal \
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: \
10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I am not a Spring user. I have only read \
papers on it. It looks to me like it competes with both Struts and ADF. Though \
it is not really a competitor to ADF, it really just suggests an approach, where ADF \
“is” the approach with all of the needed generators/libraries. It seems to be a \
Struts-lite in the controller layer, but like I said I have not tried to build in \
Spring.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT \
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P> \
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy \
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It clearly has \
less maturity/mindshare than Struts, it is yet another framework. It may take \
over the world, or just fizzle out, only time will tell.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P \
class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P class=MsoNormal \
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: \
10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Paul</SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal \
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P class=MsoNormal \
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P class=MsoNormal \
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; \
FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: \
bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated \
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">ml-errors@fatcity.com</A> [<A \
class=moz-txt-link-freetext \
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com</A>] <B><SPAN \
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Lynn Guy<BR><B><SPAN \
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, December 27, 2004 1:58 \
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Multiple recipients of list \
ODTUG-JAVA-L<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: Good and \
easy to follow book for JSP/Servlet sites development</SPAN></FONT></P> <P \
class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The std java answer - because its new! The latest \
greatest!</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Seriously, it was developed in response to the notion that \
java applications were plagued with exactly the problems you described... dont \
perform and poor productivity. I havent done detailed research on the mechanics \
yet but my impression is that spring provides the option to use it with other popular \
components such as Hibernate for example. That it can be configured and is \
DESIGNED to be used with these components. You dont have to fumble around \
trying to fit the puzzle together with a new home-grown solution for each \
project. Its also supposed to be EASY to substitute EJB for Hibernate at a \
later date without re-writing your application. </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Also, when I started using Struts I subscribed to their \
list. Lots of traffic. It was not unusual for newbies to ask "how do I \
get to a data base?". The standard response was a VERY snotty "this isnt \
the place to ask" with no information as to where to go for information on this \
topic. Stovepipe thinking at its finest. The authors of Spring, if \
nothing else, acknowledge these issues. I for one, feel better with that \
"attitude" as these are problems that many applications have to deal with and good \
standard solutions will provide value. </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Also, to be fair I think Spring is a different animal than \
Struts. Spring is an "application" architecture as where Struts seems to be \
focused more on the front end UI. Struts is more analogous to JSF than \
Spring. Maybe Spring is more analogous to ADF than Struts. You can use \
Spring with Struts, JSF, Tapestry, etc. I'm thinking Spring is a core and you \
can plug in Struts/JSF/Tapestry and then plug in Hibernate/JDBC/EJB etc. Its \
more of a "core" that provides clue for the other pieces. Struts is just one of \
the pieces and does not address any of the "glue" issues other than within its own \
narrower scope.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">This "core" has been missing from Java open source projects \
and Spring is an attempt to fill that space.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">HTH</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><B><I><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: \
italic">Paul Dorsey <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E \
href="mailto:pdorsey@dulcian.com"><pdorsey@dulcian.com></A></SPAN></I></B> \
wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; \
PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; \
MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt \
solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <P class=MsoNormal \
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: \
10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Spring is a alternative to Struts as a \
framework. As Struts seems to be the industry leader, why would you want to \
consider Spring?</SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT \
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P> \
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN \
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated \
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">ml-errors@fatcity.com</A> [<A \
class=moz-txt-link-freetext \
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com</A>] <B><SPAN \
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Lynn Guy<BR><B><SPAN \
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, December 27, 2004 12:38 \
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Multiple recipients of list \
ODTUG-JAVA-L<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: Good and \
easy to follow book for JSP/Servlet sites development</SPAN></FONT></P> <P \
class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN \
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" \
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">There's an e-book available at \
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" \
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><A \
href="http://www.sourcebeat.com/TitleAction.do?id=7">http://www.sourcebeat.com/TitleAction.do?id=7</A></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" \
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" \
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I cant say anything about it but it is written \
by Raible himself. They have been promising a couple of books for a while but \
they havent appeared yet. </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" \
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV> <DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><B><I><FONT face="Times New Roman" \
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-STYLE: italic">VJaen <A \
class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E \
href="mailto:MRXP-TVJ@pancanal.com"><MRXP-TVJ@pancanal.com></A></SPAN></FONT></I></B> \
wrote:</P></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; \
BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; \
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; \
BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT \
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Hi Lyn,<BR><BR>Thanks for \
your suggestions; I've heard about the Spring Framework, do you know any book about \
it? They are writing the "Professional Java Development with the Spring Framework" \
book but the possible publishing date is in 4 months.<BR><BR><BR><BR>My project is \
very simple and it doesn't have a deadline, so we can take the chance, but learning \
something useful in the \
process.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Thanks!<BR><BR>Victor.<BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Mensaje \
original----- <BR>De: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated \
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">ml-errors@fatcity.com</A> en nombre de Lynn Guy \
<BR>Enviado el: Vie 12/24/2004 02:53 p.m. <BR>Para: Multiple recipients of list \
ODTUG-JAVA-L <BR>CC: <BR>Asunto: RE: Good and easy to follow book for JSP/Servlet \
sites development<BR><BR><BR><BR>For a book one of the Struts "bibles" is Struts in \
Action by Ted Husted. Just to ge! t my arms
around it I used Mastering Jakarta Struts by James Goodwill (dec! ! ! ! ent example! \
s). Another interesting read is Jakarta Pitfalls by Bill Dudney and Jonathan Lehr. \
They have some specific examples and suggestions for struts.<BR><BR><BR><BR>I \
absolutely agree with Paul's suggestions, but... If you feel you need to go the open \
source route check out the Spring architecture and Appfuse. Just google on the names \
the project links should come up. <BR><BR><BR><BR>The main problem with what you are \
proposing to do is that the open source community has a banquet of stovepipes to do \
things. Everything from logging to front end to persistence (db access) and more. You \
have to take a number of products and install them, configure them (to work \
separately AND together and with your OS and your db and, and and) and then figure \
out how to USE them together to come up with a coherent "thing" to build your \
application with. The fellas writing this open source stuff say it takes them 6 ! \
weeks on a project to do this. Imagine what it takes if you arent an expert.! ! ! ! \
That small p! roject of yours just got a bit bigger. Spring is used as part of \
Appfuse. Appfuse is supposed to allow you to pick from the banquet (limited choices \
but probably enough for your project) and get it installed and working. If I were you \
I'd take a serious look at it. IF nothing else it provides a sandbox for you to see \
what is involved what some of the choices are.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Also, FYI, version 5 of \
MySQL will support stored procedures and functions. I think it will support some \
rudimentary triggers as well. But an interesting alternative for those of us who cant \
afford Oracle (which is now competitively priced with the "dark side" by the way) is \
MaxDB sold by the folks who brought you MySQL. Its about $1500 per cpu and fully \
suppprts stored procedures, functions triggers and transactions. You can find info on \
it on the MySQL site under products. Its being used by some pretty signific! ant
enterprises to run SAP. More than MySQL but less than the other alterna! tives! ! ! \
, maybe a good comp! romise depending on your need/desire for the extra \
features.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Good luck, you've bought a ticket for one of the wildest \
rides in the amusement park!<BR><BR><BR><BR>Desktop 2005 - You're Virtually There! \
February 15-17, 2005<BR>Visit <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext \
href="http://www.odtug.com/">http://www.odtug.com</A> for details. Computer + \
internet required.<BR>Keynote Speakers: Bill Inmon, Sohaib Abbasi and Thomas \
Kurian.<BR>-- <BR>Author: VJaen<BR>INET: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated \
href="mailto:MRXP-TVJ@pancanal.com">MRXP-TVJ@pancanal.com</A><BR><BR>Fat City \
Hosting, San Diego, California -- <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext \
href="http://www.fatcity.com/">http://www.fatcity.com</A><BR>---------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>To \
REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message<BR>to: <A \
class=moz-txt-link-abbr! eviated
href="mailto:ListGuru@fatcity.com">ListGuru@fatcity.com</A> (note EXACT spelling of \
'ListGuru') and in<BR>the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB \
ODTUG-JAVA-L<BR>(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You \
may<BR>also send the HELP command for other information (like \
subscribing).</SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
Desktop 2005 - You're Virtually There! February 15-17, 2005
Visit http://www.odtug.com for details. Computer + internet required.
Keynote Speakers: Bill Inmon, Sohaib Abbasi and Thomas Kurian.
--
Author: Lynn Guy
INET: lguy01@yahoo.com
Fat City Hosting, San Diego, California -- http://www.fatcity.com
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