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List: odtug-java-l
Subject: RE: Oracle's Internal Use of JDeveloper (Was:RE: Eclipse IDE)
From: <lnd () hnit ! is>
Date: 2003-12-11 15:54:30
[Download RAW message or body]
Thank you for answer.
>The data access layer is custom written Java because they didnt take the
time to figure out the architecture properly before starting the coding.
I would like to know statistics how many projects do have a luxury to "figure
out the architecture properly" and a success rate of "figuring it out"
properly, ration of inhouse made architectures vs. "standard and commercialy
available" architectures.
Best regards, Laimis
-----Original Message-----
From: ml-errors@fatcity.com [mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com] On Behalf
Of Lynn Guy
Sent: 9. desember 2003 18:54
To: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L
Subject: RE: Oracle's Internal Use of JDeveloper (Was:RE: Eclipse
IDE)
lnd@hnit.is wrote:
>On Behalf Of Lynn Guy
>The project I am working on is being built in Java and
Struts.
>If you have the "bit heads" (not meant to offend anyone
please) to set up the architecture
You forgot to mention what IDE and db access framework (aka
BC4J ) you are using, could you do this please?
Thank you, Laimis
>> that was part of the point, somebody had to provide it as
part of the groundwork and its invisible to me except as an interface. The
IDE currently is JDeveloper but that is the ONLY thing oracle in the project.
The db is SQLServer and they are using some sort of connection pooling to
connect to the db through ODBC. The data access layer is custom written Java
because they didnt take the time to figure out the architecture properly
before starting the coding. hth
-----Original Message-----
From: ml-errors@fatcity.com
[mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Guy
Sent: 7. desember 2003 23:59
To: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L
Subject: Re: Oracle's Internal Use of JDeveloper
(Was:RE: Eclipse IDE)
>>>I have Designer or JDeveloper. Would you bid on
this project for a fixed price if you were going with Java as your choice?
>>>
I'm a convert from Designer to Java (not by choice,
but due to market considerations as have been discussed). Having just
stepped into the Java world my knee-jerk reaction to the above question is
that I know Designer and could probably do it faster with Designer. However,
based on my current project I would make the following observations.
The project I am working on is being built in Java
and Struts. What I know about Java is pretty minimal at this point. But
working within the Struts framework I'm building screens that are functional
in not all that much more time than it would take with Designer. The KEY
HERE is that the framework provides a lot of stuff and was handed to me and
allows me to be productive. If you have the "bit heads" (not meant to offend
anyone please) to set up the architecture (which is a project in itsself)
then building the app is much more straightforward. This architecture is
where a lot of the techie bells and whistles reside - like should we write
our own custom connection pooling, custom security, custom this, custom that,
buy it or use freeware? Then what do we have to do to make it work together?
If you have the architecture in place, then the
answer to the question above goes to other things like what resources, what
look and feel, what environment is better for this app in this organization?
If you dont have the architecture upon which to build a Java app and its an
Oracle shop Designer is a better solution because in the time alotted you
will never build the java architecture much less the application.
Just my $.02.
Amin Adatia <amin_adatia@hotmail.com> wrote:
The problem with Java and even JDeveloper is
that "it will soon production soon or the next release of <whatever> will
have the missing feature" syndrome.
The point about OraApps is that if Java was
so viable, why is Oracle, which obviously has the Java resources, not
converting to Java completely? Other companies, also have their own
equivalent applications and they also face the same daunting tasks in
converting to Java everywhere. A potential problem, is the JDK, whose
developers apparently have not got the concept of backward compatibility.
On a project I am working on, the
deliverables are 6 Modules, each with about 4 Tab Pages and each Tab with
about 4 Blocks and each Block with about 8-10 fields. The project span is 4
weeks. I am allowed to build in Forms 6i, or Java. I can not use WSG since I
can not use the HTTP server that comes with the Database. The WebServer has
to be WebSphere which I do not think supports the Mod pl/sql.. I have
Designer or JDeveloper. Would you bid on this project for a fixed price if
you were going with Java as your choice?
Regards
Amin Adatia (amin@knowtech.ca)
KnowTech Solutions Inc (www.knowtech.ca
<http://www.knowtech.ca/> )
(613) 226-8378 Fax (613) 226-7004 Mobile
(613) 864-8378
----- Original Message -----
From: Shay Shmeltzer
<mailto:Shay.Shmeltzer@oracle.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L
<mailto:ODTUG-JAVA-L@fatcity.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 22:59
Subject: Re: Oracle's Internal Use of
JDeveloper (Was:RE: Eclipse IDE)
The point I was trying to make is that
claiming that Java is not a viable, stable and reliable solution that can be
the technology stack for a big, database oriented applications is simply
misleading.
Oracle E-Business Suite is a huge application
that started development a long time ago and is still being developed and
enhanced today. To get a review of the E-Business Suite architecture look at
the slides for the "Oracle E-Business Suite: Technology Essentials"
presentation done in the last OW SF
(http://otn.oracle.com/ow2003/ow_ebs.html).
As you'll see in this presentation, new
self-service applications are built with Java (and JDeveloper).
There are also many Oracle Forms modules in
the E-Business Suite. And guess what, Oracle Forms uses Java to create its
sophisticated runtime user interface. To me, this means that "professional
interfaces" can be built in Java.
The question in my eye is not whether
JDeveloper is replacing Forms. If you feel comfortable with a PL/SQL based
architecture for development (be it Forms, Designer or WSG) by all means,
keep on developing with this stack.
The problem is that some members of ODTUG are
claiming that Java is not a viable solution, which is simply not true. I
think this hurts other members who are evaluating their development strategy
and are considering Java.
Shay.
lnd@hnit.is wrote:
>On Behalf Of Amin Adatia
> And "Professional UI" being where some very
useful data capture is being done? not suitable for Java?
This is not Java's buisness actually. I
remmeber Booch's citate somewhere in his OO book: after he explains a lot
about OO, he just sais something like: a programmer may built Forms
Builder(!) for "Professional database UI" using OO methodology... Thus,
rather declarative 4GL Forms and 3GL Java are in different catagories
actually.
Question is: is it JDeveloper's which is
going to replace Forms completely today?
From Steve's answer I understand that, well,
Oracle acknowledges that Forms *still* leads in some areas among Oracle tools
- not a big discovery, actually, specialy for C/S.
I would claim that a good WSG/Designer
specialist can leave JDeveloper behind(with ease, by the way) as far web is
concerned either - however this may change/changed already.
-----Original Message-----
From: ml-errors@fatcity.com
[mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com] On Behalf Of Amin Adatia
Sent: 7. desember 2003 00:04
To: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L
Subject: Re: Oracle's Internal Use of
JDeveloper (Was:RE: Eclipse IDE)
And "Professional UI" being where some very
useful data capture is being done? not suitable for Java?
Regards
Amin Adatia (amin@knowtech.ca)
KnowTech Solutions Inc (www.knowtech.ca
<http://www.knowtech.ca/> )
(613) 226-8378 Fax (613) 226-7004 Mobile
(613) 864-8378
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Muench
<mailto:Steve.Muench@oracle.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L
<mailto:ODTUG-JAVA-L@fatcity.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 18:44
Subject: RE: Oracle's Internal Use of
JDeveloper (Was:RE: Eclipse IDE)
Is JDeveloper *already* replacing Forms at
least for new projects at Oracle?
JDeveloper and BC4J are part of the core
technology stack for Oracle Application's "Self-Service" web applications for
the 11i release and beyond. Self-Service applications are web-based
applications that have a user interface that looks like
http://ilearning.oracle.com <http://ilearning.oracle.com/> . All self-service
web applications built by teams at Oracle follow our Browser Look and Feel
Guidelines that are available for public review at
http://otn.oracle.com/tech/blaf/index.html
The teams building web applications make use
of the ever-more-sophisticated library of UIX controls, which offer some
interactivity and a consistent BLAF look and feel.
Teams building, maintaining, and enhancing
the "Professional UI's" in the E-Business Suite have done for years and
continue do it using Oracle Forms.
Steve Muench - Developer, Product Mgr,
Java/XML Evangelist, Author - Oracle
http://radio.weblogs.com/0118231/
_____
From: ml-errors@fatcity.com
[mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com] On Behalf Of lnd@hnit.is
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 22:39
To: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L
Subject: RE: Oracle's Internal Use of
JDeveloper (Was:RE: Eclipse IDE)
>Amin Adatia
>Yea... but to keep plugging Oracle
E-Business Suite as being written in Java is marketing hype beyond reason.
Let's ask Oracle guys again: is JDeveloper
*already* replacing Forms at least for new projects at Oracle?
What I am for with this question: it may well
be that some Oracle applications are developed with JDeveloper and JDeveloper
is much better for the task than Forms. E.g., Steve's mentioned "UI debugger"
for JDevelioper itself - it is definitely a project for 3GL tool, not for
Forms.
But shops, developing with Forms applications
*suited* for Forms, are interested if Oracle itself is capable of replacing
forms with JDeveloper *right now*. I am asking: if a new project is started:
is Oracle automatically taking JDeveloper or looks how many tables/what kind
of GUI's are involved: if many tables and no fancy GUI then it takes
Forms... Or JDeveloper?
Thank you in advance, Laimis
-----Original Message-----
From: ml-errors@fatcity.com
[mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com] On Behalf Of Amin Adatia
Sent: 6. desember 2003 18:04
To: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L
Subject: Re: Oracle's Internal Use of
JDeveloper (Was:RE: Eclipse IDE)
Yea... but to keep plugging Oracle E-Business
Suite as being written in Java is marketing hype beyond reason. I can also
say that a car engine can power an aeroplane since they both use internal
combustion engines. So the question Shay needs to address is really how much
of the Oracle E-Business Suite is in Java since he said that it is developed
in Java. I think it is basically Forms 2.0 approach implemented in Forms 6i
via Forms 4.0. It was originally, IMHO, an exercise in showing how to make
Forms 2.0 do the same interface as Lotus 123 (or was it visicalc?) and not
really what the Accounting was supposed to be about. That just happened as a
by product.
Regards
Amin Adatia (amin@knowtech.ca)
KnowTech Solutions Inc (www.knowtech.ca
<http://www.knowtech.ca/> )
(613) 226-8378 Fax (613) 226-7004 Mobile
(613) 864-8378
----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Downey
<mailto:downey_listserv@sbcglobal.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L
<mailto:ODTUG-JAVA-L@fatcity.com>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 17:44
Subject: Re: Oracle's Internal Use of
JDeveloper (Was:RE: Eclipse IDE)
Amin,
Oracle Applications 11i (aka E-Business
Suite) is Oracle *Forms* 6i for
probably 90+% of the suite. You can
/technically/ say that it is 100% Java
only because it uses JInitiator for the
presentation of the Oracle Forms.
However, some of the Forms do have Java
Applet plugins for the newer modules
when Forms lacks in functionality.
The self-service apps are a mixture of Web
PL/SQL, JavaScript and JSP with a
future direction of JSP and Java.
--
Frank Downey
Amin Adatia wrote:
> Is all of OraApp in Java? or just the
self-service modules?
>
> Regards
> Amin Adatia (amin@knowtech.ca)
> KnowTech Solutions Inc (www.knowtech.ca
<http://www.knowtech.ca/> )
> (613) 226-8378 Mobile (613) 864-8378 Fax
(613) 226-7004
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Shay Shmeltzer
>&am! p;nb! sp; To: Multiple recipients of
list ODTUG-JAVA-L
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 13:04
> Subject: Re: Oracle's Internal Use of
JDeveloper (Was:RE: Eclipse
> IDE)
>
>
> I don't know, but I think the fact that
Oracle E-Business Suite,
> peoplesoft and SAP are all developed in
Java is another interesting
> fact :-)
>
> Shay.
>
> Amin Adatia wrote:
>
> How many of those 46% developers
actually have a system like say,
> SAS, or OraApps or PeopleSoft, etc... ALL
in Java? It is one thing to
> have a clock pop up on the window or rather
a browser, quite another
> to build applications.
>
> Are you saying that Internet/Web is
only valid if done with
> Java????? (point # 5)
>
> Regards
> ! Amin Adat! ia (amin@knowtech.ca)
> KnowTech Solutions Inc (www.knowtech.ca
<http://www.knowtech.ca/> )
> (613) 226-8378 Mobile (613) 864-8378
Fax (613) 226-7004
> ----- Original Message -----
> Shmeltzer
> To: Multiple recipients of list
ODTUG-JAVA-L
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 11:19
> Oracle's Internal Use of JDeveloper
(Was:RE:
> Eclipse IDE)
>
>
> For all of you out there who question
Java viability, here are
> a few points to ponder about:
>
> a.. According to the latest Evans
Data Corporation
> Development Survey:
> b.. "46% of North American
developers use Java for at least
> part of their work today. For 12%, it's
used for more than half the
> development time."
> c.. These numbers are higher than
for any other language.
> d.. In their APAC report they say
"Java use is sharply on the
> increase in APAC regions." And "Half the
developers (53%) use Java
> for at least part of their work today,"
> e.. Only 15% (of NA developers) say
they spend no time at all
> on internet and Web development.
> f.. Gartner's Hype cycle of
application development (2003)
> places Java well after the hype curve on
the way for the plateau.
> g.! ! . Check your colleges and
universities to see what language
> is being taught there? (You'll find it is
probably Java).
> h.. Do a search on www.monster.com
<http://www.monster.com/> (even if you are not
> looking for a job right now) a search for
"Java" will bring up more
> than 5,000 positions. C# and pl/sql
searches give you about 1000 jobs
> each. (Cobol still comes up with 520).
> The computing world is changing
constantly around us. Like it
> or not, Java is certainly something you
should consider if you want
> to adapt and keep relevant in this world.
> With Oracle JDeveloper 10g we are
trying to make the transition
> to Java easier - so don't be stuck in one
state of mind, expend your
> horizons - it is always fun to learn new
things.
>
> ! ! Shay.
>
> --
> -------------------------------------
> Shay Shmeltzer
> Sr. Product Manager
> Oracle Corporation
--
ODTUG Now 2004, Let Us Show you How! June
20-24, 2004 at the Westin Kierland
Resort, Scottsdale, Arizona Visit
http://www.odtug.com <http://www.odtug.com/> for details.
--
Author: Frank Downey
INET: downey_listserv@sbcglobal.net
Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051
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<DIV><SPAN class=588414915-11122003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Thank
you for answer.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=588414915-11122003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=588414915-11122003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>>The data access layer is custom written Java because they didnt take
the time to figure out the architecture properly before starting the
coding. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=588414915-11122003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=588414915-11122003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
would like to know statistics how many projects do have a luxury to "figure out
the architecture properly" and a success rate of "figuring it out"
properly, ration of inhouse made architectures vs. "standard and commercialy
available" architectures. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=588414915-11122003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=588414915-11122003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Best
regards, Laimis</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=588414915-11122003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=588414915-11122003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; \
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
ml-errors@fatcity.com [mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Lynn
Guy<BR><B>Sent:</B> 9. desember 2003 18:54<BR><B>To:</B> Multiple recipients
of list ODTUG-JAVA-L<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Oracle's Internal Use of
JDeveloper (Was:RE: Eclipse IDE)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>lnd@hnit.is</I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1264" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><SPAN class=084582209-08122003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Tahoma><STRONG>On Behalf Of
</STRONG>Lynn Guy</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=084582209-08122003>></SPAN>The project I am working on
is being built in Java and Struts. </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=084582209-08122003>></SPAN>If you have the "bit heads"
(not meant to offend anyone please) to set up the architecture </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=084582209-08122003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>You forgot to mention what IDE and db access framework (aka BC4J
) you are using, could you do this please?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=084582209-08122003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=084582209-08122003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Thank you, Laimis</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=084582209-08122003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=084582209-08122003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>>> that was part of the point, somebody had to provide it as
part of the groundwork and its invisible to me except as an interface.
The IDE currently is JDeveloper but that is the ONLY thing oracle in the
project. The db is SQLServer and they are using some sort of
connection pooling to connect to the db through ODBC. The data access
layer is custom written Java because they didnt take the time to figure out
the architecture properly before starting the coding.
hth</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=084582209-08122003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=084582209-08122003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; \
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
ml-errors@fatcity.com [mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Lynn Guy<BR><B>Sent:</B> 7. desember 2003 23:59<BR><B>To:</B> Multiple
recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Oracle's Internal
Use of JDeveloper (Was:RE: Eclipse IDE)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>>>>I have Designer or JDeveloper. Would you bid on this
project for a fixed price if you were going with Java as your
choice? >>></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'm a convert from Designer to Java (not by choice, but due to market
considerations as have been discussed). Having just stepped into the
Java world my knee-jerk reaction to the above question is that I know
Designer and could probably do it faster with Designer. However,
based on my current project I would make the following observations.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>The project I am working on is being built in Java and Struts.
What I know about Java is pretty minimal at this point. But working
within the Struts framework I'm building screens that are functional in
not all that much more time than it would take with Designer. The
KEY HERE is that the framework provides a lot of stuff and was handed to
me and allows me to be productive. If you have the "bit heads" (not
meant to offend anyone please) to set up the architecture (which is a
project in itsself) then building the app is much more
straightforward. This architecture is where a lot of the techie
bells and whistles reside - like should we write our own custom connection
pooling, custom security, custom this, custom that, buy it or use
freeware? Then what do we have to do to make it work
together? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If you have the architecture in place, then the answer to the
question above goes to other things like what resources, what look and
feel, what environment is better for this app in this organization?
If you dont have the architecture upon which to build a Java app and its
an Oracle shop Designer is a better solution because in the time alotted
you will never build the java architecture much less the
application.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Just my $.02.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><B><I>Amin Adatia <amin_adatia@hotmail.com></I></B>
wrote:</DIV>
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<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1276" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The problem with Java and even JDeveloper
is that "it will soon production soon or the next release of
<whatever> will have the missing feature" syndrome.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The point about OraApps is that if Java was
so viable, why is Oracle, which obviously has the Java resources,
not converting to Java completely? Other companies, also have their own
equivalent applications and they also face the same daunting tasks in
converting to Java everywhere. A potential problem, is the JDK, whose
developers apparently have not got the concept of backward
compatibility.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>On a project I am working on, the
deliverables are 6 Modules, each with about 4 Tab Pages and each Tab
with about 4 Blocks and each Block with about 8-10 fields. The project
span is 4 weeks. I am allowed to build in Forms 6i, or Java. I can not
use WSG since I can not use the HTTP server that comes with
the Database. The WebServer has to be WebSphere which I do not think
supports the Mod pl/sql.. I have Designer or JDeveloper. Would you bid
on this project for a fixed price if you were going with Java as
your choice? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Regards<BR>Amin Adatia (<A
href="mailto:amin@knowtech.ca">amin@knowtech.ca</A>)<BR>KnowTech
Solutions Inc (<A
href="http://www.knowtech.ca/">www.knowtech.ca</A>)<BR>(613)
226-8378 Fax (613) 226-7004 Mobile (613) 864-8378</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: \
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: \
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=Shay.Shmeltzer@oracle.com
href="mailto:Shay.Shmeltzer@oracle.com">Shay Shmeltzer</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=ODTUG-JAVA-L@fatcity.com
href="mailto:ODTUG-JAVA-L@fatcity.com">Multiple recipients of list
ODTUG-JAVA-L</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 06, 2003
22:59</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Oracle's Internal
Use of JDeveloper (Was:RE: Eclipse IDE)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>The point I was trying to make is that claiming that
Java is not a viable, stable and reliable solution that can be the
technology stack for a big, database oriented applications is simply
misleading.<BR><BR>Oracle E-Business Suite is a huge application that
started development a long time ago and is still being developed and
enhanced today. To get a review of the E-Business Suite architecture
look at the slides for the “Oracle E-Business Suite: Technology
Essentials” presentation done in the last OW SF (<A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://otn.oracle.com/ow2003/ow_ebs.html">http://otn.oracle.com/ow2003/ow_ebs.html</A>).<BR>As \
you’ll see in this presentation, new self-service applications are
built with Java (and JDeveloper). <BR>There are also many Oracle Forms
modules in the E-Business Suite. And guess what, Oracle Forms uses
Java to create its sophisticated runtime user interface. To me, this
means that “professional interfaces” can be built in Java. \
<BR><BR>The
question in my eye is not whether JDeveloper is replacing Forms. If
you feel comfortable with a PL/SQL based architecture for development
(be it Forms, Designer or WSG) by all means, keep on developing with
this stack. <BR>The problem is that some members of ODTUG are claiming
that Java is not a viable solution, which is simply not true. I think
this hurts other members who are evaluating their development strategy
and are considering Java.<BR><BR>Shay.<BR><BR><BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:lnd@hnit.is">lnd@hnit.is</A> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=midF001.005D90A9.20031206162920@fatcity.com
type="cite">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1264" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT
color=#000000><FONT size=2><B><SPAN
class=146461300-07122003>></SPAN>On Behalf Of </B>Amin
Adatia<BR></FONT></FONT></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2><SPAN class=146461300-07122003>> </SPAN>And
"Professional UI" being where some very useful data capture is being
done? not suitable for Java?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=146461300-07122003><FONT size=2>This is not Java's
buisness actually. I remmeber Booch's citate somewhere in his OO
book: after he explains a lot about OO, he just sais
something like: a programmer may built Forms Builder(!)
for "Professional database UI" using OO methodology...
Thus, rather declarative 4GL Forms and 3GL Java are in different
catagories actually.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=146461300-07122003><FONT size=2>Question is: is it
JDeveloper's which is going to replace Forms completely today?
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=146461300-07122003><FONT size=2>From Steve's answer
I understand that, well, Oracle acknowledges that
F</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=146461300-07122003><FONT size=2>orms
*still* leads in some areas among Oracle tools - not a big
discovery, actually, specialy for C/S.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=146461300-07122003><FONT size=2>I would claim that
a good WSG/Designer specialist can leave JDeveloper behind(with
ease, by the way) as far web is concerned either - however this may
change/changed already.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,255) 2px \
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr
align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">ml-errors@fatcity.com</A> [<A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Amin Adatia<BR><B>Sent:</B> 7. desember 2003
00:04<BR><B>To:</B> Multiple recipients of list
ODTUG-JAVA-L<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Oracle's Internal Use of
JDeveloper (Was:RE: Eclipse IDE)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And "Professional UI" being where
some very useful data capture is being done? not suitable for
Java?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Regards<BR>Amin Adatia (<A
href="mailto:amin@knowtech.ca">amin@knowtech.ca</A>)<BR>KnowTech
Solutions Inc (<A
href="http://www.knowtech.ca/">www.knowtech.ca</A>)<BR>(613)
226-8378 Fax (613) 226-7004 Mobile (613)
864-8378</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; \
BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: \
none">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial; \
font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none; moz-background-clip: initial; \
moz-background-inline-policy: initial; moz-background-origin: initial"><B>From:</B> \
<A title=Steve.Muench@oracle.com
href="mailto:Steve.Muench@oracle.com">Steve Muench</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: \
none"><B>To:</B> <A title=ODTUG-JAVA-L@fatcity.com
href="mailto:ODTUG-JAVA-L@fatcity.com">Multiple recipients of
list ODTUG-JAVA-L</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: \
none"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 06, 2003 18:44</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: \
none"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Oracle's Internal Use of JDeveloper (Was:RE: Eclipse
IDE)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=058124921-06122003><FONT
face="Lucida Console">
<DIV><SPAN class=771332821-06122003><FONT face=Arial><FONT
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><STRONG><SPAN
class=058124921-06122003>I</SPAN>s JDeveloper *already*
replacing Forms at least for new projects at Oracle?
</STRONG></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=058124921-06122003><FONT face="Lucida Console"
color=#008000 size=2><STRONG>JDeveloper and BC4J are part of the
core technology stack for Oracle Application's "Self-Service"
web applications for the 11i release and
beyond. Self-Service applications are web-based
applications that have a user interface that looks like <A
href="http://ilearning.oracle.com/">http://ilearning.oracle.com</A>. </STRONG></FONT></SPAN><SPAN \
class=058124921-06122003><STRONG><FONT face="Lucida Console"
color=#008000 size=2>All self-service web applications built by
teams at Oracle follow our Browser Look and Feel Guidelines that
are available for public review at <A
href="http://otn.oracle.com/tech/blaf/index.html">http://otn.oracle.com/tech/blaf/index.html</A></FONT></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
class=058124921-06122003><STRONG></STRONG></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=058124921-06122003><STRONG><FONT
face="Lucida Console" color=#008000 size=2>The teams building
web applications make use of the ever-more-sophisticated library
of UIX controls, which offer some interactivity and a consistent
BLAF look and feel.</FONT></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
class=058124921-06122003><STRONG></STRONG></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=058124921-06122003><STRONG><FONT
face="Lucida Console" color=#008000 size=2>Teams building,
maintaining, and enhancing the "Professional UI's" in the
E-Business Suite have done for years and continue do it using
Oracle Forms.</FONT></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=058124921-06122003><FONT face="Lucida Console"
color=#008000 size=2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><!-- \
Converted from text/plain format -->
<P><FONT size=2>Steve Muench - Developer, Product Mgr, Java/XML
Evangelist, Author - Oracle<BR><A
href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0118231/">http://radio.weblogs.com/0118231/</A><BR></FONT></P>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">ml-errors@fatcity.com</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com</A>] \
<B>On Behalf Of </B><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:lnd@hnit.is">lnd@hnit.is</A><BR><B>Sent:</B>
Saturday, December 06, 2003 22:39<BR><B>To:</B> Multiple
recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:
Oracle's Internal Use of JDeveloper (Was:RE: Eclipse
IDE)<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=771332821-06122003><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>>Amin Adatia</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=771332821-06122003><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>Yea... but to keep plugging Oracle E-Business Suite
as being written in Java is marketing hype beyond reason.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=771332821-06122003><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Let's ask Oracle guys again: is
JDeveloper *already* replacing Forms at least for new projects
at Oracle? </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=771332821-06122003><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>What I am for with this question: it may
well be that some Oracle applications are developed with
JDeveloper and JDeveloper is much better for the task than
Forms. E.g., Steve's mentioned "UI debugger" for JDevelioper
itself - it is definitely a project for 3GL tool, not for
Forms. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=771332821-06122003><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>But shops, developing with Forms
applications *suited* for Forms, are interested if Oracle
itself </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=771332821-06122003><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>is capable of replacing forms
with JDeveloper *right now*. I am asking: if a new project is
started: is Oracle automatically taking JDeveloper or looks
how many tables/what kind of GUI's are involved: if many
tables and no fancy GUI then it takes Forms... Or JDeveloper?
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=771332821-06122003><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Thank you in advance,
Laimis</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: \
rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader \
lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">ml-errors@fatcity.com</A>
[<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com">mailto:ml-errors@fatcity.com</A>] \
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Amin Adatia<BR><B>Sent:</B> 6. desember
2003 18:04<BR><B>To:</B> Multiple recipients of list
ODTUG-JAVA-L<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Oracle's Internal Use of
JDeveloper (Was:RE: Eclipse IDE)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yea... but to keep plugging
Oracle E-Business Suite as being written in Java is
marketing hype beyond reason. I can also say that a car
engine can power an aeroplane since they both use internal
combustion engines. So the question Shay needs to address is
really how much of the Oracle E-Business Suite is in Java
since he said that it is developed in Java. I think it is
basically Forms 2.0 approach implemented in Forms 6i via
Forms 4.0. It was originally, IMHO, an exercise in
showing how to make Forms 2.0 do the same interface as Lotus
123 (or was it visicalc?) and not really what the Accounting
was supposed to be about. That just happened as a by
product.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Regards<BR>Amin Adatia (<A
href="mailto:amin@knowtech.ca">amin@knowtech.ca</A>)<BR>KnowTech
Solutions Inc (<A
href="http://www.knowtech.ca/">www.knowtech.ca</A>)<BR>(613)
226-8378 Fax (613) 226-7004 Mobile (613)
864-8378</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; \
BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; \
font-size-adjust: none">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial; \
font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none; moz-background-clip: initial; \
moz-background-inline-policy: initial; moz-background-origin: initial"><B>From:</B> \
<A title=downey_listserv@sbcglobal.net \
href="mailto:downey_listserv@sbcglobal.net">Frank Downey</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; \
font-size-adjust: none"><B>To:</B> <A title=ODTUG-JAVA-L@fatcity.com
href="mailto:ODTUG-JAVA-L@fatcity.com">Multiple recipients
of list ODTUG-JAVA-L</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; \
font-size-adjust: none"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 05, 2003 17:44</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-stretch: normal; \
font-size-adjust: none"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: Oracle's Internal Use of JDeveloper (Was:RE: Eclipse
IDE)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Amin,<BR><BR>Oracle Applications 11i (aka
E-Business Suite) is Oracle *Forms* 6i for<BR>probably
90+% of the suite. You can /technically/ say that it
is 100% Java<BR>only because it uses JInitiator for the
presentation of the Oracle Forms.<BR>However, some of the
Forms do have Java Applet plugins for the newer
modules<BR>when Forms lacks in functionality.<BR><BR>The
self-service apps are a mixture of Web PL/SQL, JavaScript
and JSP with a<BR>future direction of JSP and
Java.<BR><BR>-- <BR>Frank Downey<BR><BR><BR>Amin Adatia
wrote:<BR>> Is all of OraApp in Java? or just the
self-service modules?<BR>><BR>> Regards<BR>> Amin
Adatia (<A
href="mailto:amin@knowtech.ca">amin@knowtech.ca</A>)<BR>>
KnowTech Solutions Inc (<A
href="http://www.knowtech.ca/">www.knowtech.ca</A>)<BR>>
(613) 226-8378 Mobile (613) 864-8378 Fax (613)
226-7004<BR>> ----- Original Message
-----<BR>> From: Shay
Shmeltzer<BR>>&am! p;nb! sp; To: Multiple
recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L<BR>> Sent:
Friday, December 05, 2003 13:04<BR>>
Subject: Re: Oracle's Internal Use of JDeveloper (Was:RE:
Eclipse<BR>> IDE)<BR>><BR>><BR>> I
don't know, but I think the fact that Oracle E-Business
Suite,<BR>> peoplesoft and SAP are all developed in
Java is another interesting<BR>> fact
:-)<BR>><BR>>
Shay.<BR>><BR>> Amin Adatia
wrote:<BR>><BR>> How many of
those 46% developers actually have a system like
say,<BR>> SAS, or OraApps or PeopleSoft, etc... ALL in
Java? It is one thing to<BR>> have a clock pop up on
the window or rather a browser, quite another<BR>> to
build
applications.<BR>><BR>> Are
you saying that Internet/Web is only valid if done
with<BR>> Java????? (point #
5)<BR>><BR>>
Regards<BR>> ! Amin Adat! ia (<A
\
href="mailto:amin@knowtech.ca">amin@knowtech.ca</A>)<BR>> \
KnowTech Solutions Inc (<A
\
href="http://www.knowtech.ca/">www.knowtech.ca</A>)<BR>> \
(613) 226-8378 Mobile (613) 864-8378 Fax (613)
226-7004<BR>> -----
Original Message
-----<BR>>
Shmeltzer<BR>> To:
Multiple recipients of list
ODTUG-JAVA-L<BR>>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003
11:19<BR>> Oracle's
Internal Use of JDeveloper (Was:RE:<BR>> Eclipse
\
IDE)<BR>><BR>><BR>>
For all of you out there who question Java viability, here
are<BR>> a few points to ponder
\
about:<BR>><BR>> \
a.. According to the latest Evans Data Corporation<BR>>
Development
Survey:<BR>> \
b.. "46% of North American developers use Java for at
least<BR>> part of their work today. For 12%, it's used
for more than half the<BR>> development
time."<BR>>
c.. These numbers are higher than for any other
\
language.<BR>>
d.. In their APAC report they say "Java use is sharply on
the<BR>> increase in APAC regions." And "Half the
developers (53%) use Java<BR>> for at least part of
their work
today,"<BR>> \
e.. Only 15% (of NA developers) say they spend no time at
all<BR>> on internet and Web
\
development.<BR>> f.. Gartner's \
Hype cycle of application development
(2003)<BR>> places Java well after the hype curve on
the way for the
\
plateau.<BR>>
g.! ! . Check your colleges and universities to see what
language<BR>> is being taught there? (You'll find it is
probably
Java).<BR>>
h.. Do a search on <A
href="http://www.monster.com/">www.monster.com</A> (even
if you are not<BR>> looking for a job right now) a
search for "Java" will bring up more<BR>> than 5,000
positions. C# and pl/sql searches give you about 1000
jobs<BR>> each. (Cobol still comes up with
520).<BR>> The
computing world is changing constantly around us. Like
it<BR>> or not, Java is certainly something you should
consider if you want<BR>> to adapt and keep relevant in
this world.<BR>>
With Oracle JDeveloper 10g we are trying to make the
transition<BR>> to Java easier - so don't be stuck in
one state of mind, expend your<BR>> horizons - it is
always fun to learn new
things.<BR>><BR>> ! !
Shay.<BR>><BR>> --<BR>>
-------------------------------------<BR>> Shay
Shmeltzer<BR>> Sr. Product Manager<BR>> Oracle
Corporation<BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>ODTUG Now 2004, Let Us Show
you How! June 20-24, 2004 at the Westin
Kierland<BR>Resort, Scottsdale, Arizona Visit <A
href="http://www.odtug.com/">http://www.odtug.com</A> for
details.<BR>-- <BR>Author: Frank Downey<BR> INET: <A
\
href="mailto:downey_listserv@sbcglobal.net">downey_listserv@sbcglobal.net</A><BR><BR>Fat \
City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 <A
\
href="http://www.fatcity.com/">http://www.fatcity.com</A><BR>San Diego,
California --
Mailing list and web hosting
\
services<BR>---------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>To \
REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail
message<BR>to: <A
href="mailto:ListGuru@fatcity.com">ListGuru@fatcity.com</A>
(note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in<BR>the messa! !
ge BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB
ODTUG-JAVA-L<BR>(or the name of mailing list you want to
be removed from). You may<BR>also send the HELP
command for other information (like
subscribing).<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><PRE \
class=moz-signature cols="72">--
-------------------------------------
Shay Shmeltzer
Sr. Product Manager
Oracle Corporation</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
--
ODTUG Now 2004, Let Us Show you How! June 20-24, 2004 at the Westin Kierland
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