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List: odtug-java-l
Subject: Re: Oracle Tools non-direction (was Eclipse IDE)
From: Jason King <jhking () airmail ! net>
Date: 2003-12-04 4:39:22
[Download RAW message or body]
Roel,
I'm not sure how much pull you have at Redwood Shores but, to echo a
point first mentioned today be John Caputo, if you folks could release
source on the generators that would go a huge way towards easing your
existing clientele's "separation anxiety" because we know Oracle's
future tool focus is not on Designer. Even if it were undocumented,
unsupported and for any 3rd party parts you just left holes and said "we
used version x of commercial library z" and left it to the community to
acquire or reproduce those libraries we'ed be a step of where we are now.
There are enough WSGL'ers (for example) that we'd have a big enough
community to maintain the tool and fix some long-standing bugs. We'd
then turn into envangalists for you guys instead of constant carpers.
Give it a thought.
Roel Stalman wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Oracle has been in the tools business for over 20 years. During that
> period, there have been tremendous changes in technology (such as the
> Internet), resulting in the need for different tools offerings. Oracle
> is no different than any other tools vendor in that respect. We are
> very commited to Java and both our Application Server and Tools
> strategy are built on it. You will see strong product offerings in
> those areas. In addition, we are commited to support our other tools:
> Forms, Reports, and Designer.
>
> Yes, Bill Dwight has left Oracle. But that's life, people move on. He
> had been with the company for more than 12 years. We have a new Tools
> VP, Christophe Job, who has been in the tools business for most of his
> career and who should be familiar to many ODTUG members.
>
> If you look at JDeveloper 10g, you can see that there is a strong
> direction to make the product more productive and less complex. The
> tool is becoming much more visual and declarative, something that has
> been requested by many ODTUG members, as well as JDeveloper and Forms
> users in general. This has been our strategy all along and we are
> delivering the first installment with 10g and will continue that going
> forward.
>
> Finally, our executives are very committed to tools. We need tools to
> help developers build applications for the Oracle platform. We need
> tools to develop Oracle Applications. And last but not least, we are
> convinced that we can build world class tools for any developer.
>
> Roel Stalman,
> Oracle Corporation.
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Oracle Tools non-direction (was Eclipse IDE)
> Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:14:26 -0800
> From: Openshaw, Mike <Mike.Openshaw@Delinea.com>
> Reply-To: ODTUG-JAVA-L@fatcity.com
> Organization: Fat City Network Services, San Diego, California
> To: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L <ODTUG-JAVA-L@fatcity.com>
>
>
>
>Sorry to chime in on this one, but there are a few unspoken issues here.
>One is that Eclipse is managed as an open source application, which has
>strengths and weaknesses that most of us are aware of. You never have to
>worry about it becoming vendor-specific, but improvements are undirected.
>
>There is no question that JDev is a more complete IDE and getting to be
>robust. My main concern that Oracle Corp. itself has a history of
>discarding and/or marginalizing Tool users (Need I go through the history?
>PowerObjects, Sedona, Cherokee, Designer, Client/Server Forms, etc.).
>Worse, Oracle seems to be on a complete bent to marginalize *any* further
>tool advances within itself (the departure of Bill Dwight should be taken as
>a *big* sign; JDev was his pride and joy.) There hasn't been any stated
>tools direction from Oracle (except that JDev will rule the world, someday)
>for quite some time and current Oracle upper management does not even
>*mention* Tools in any of its pronouncements.
>
>We need something for the top dogs, guys, to get at least the tiniest 'warm
>fuzzy' about sticking with Oracle tools.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>To: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L
>Sent: 12/3/2003 1:39 PM
>
>I might not be completely objective here but I'll try ;-)
>
>Eclipse's two main advantages are:
>A great code editor for Java (although JDeveloper in 10g has many of the
>same features in its code editor).
>It's free.
>Most of the people who use it are people who would feel comfortable
>coding a J2EE application with notepad and are just looking for a better
>code editor. Eclipse's focus is on coding features.
>
>JDeveloper on the other hand provides you with utilities and frameworks
>that actually save you the coding.This is where the real productivity
>comes into play.
>
>Eclipse doesn't have things like JDeveloper's:
>Visual UML that generates code
>Visual editor for Swing or HTML/JSP
>Visual Struts page flow modeler
>Visual Database designer
>Code profiling and optimization
>PL/SQL development capabilities
>Web services wizards
>and the list goes on...
>
>There are people and companies developing extensions to Eclipse and this
>is the way you are suppose to get some of these features. But this
>brings up a different set of problems.
>Basically, the end user ends up trying to paste together a complete IDE
>from sporadic pieces (that are usually not free). How much time and
>effort is it going to take to create a complete IDE like JDeveloper and
>how much effort will it take to manage this final collection of
>extensions? What happens when one piece is upgraded and the other is
>not, or when one of the open source extension is not being developed
>anymore, or one of the small companies that developed an extension you
>chose goes out of business?).
>
>The equivalent of a complete Eclipse based IDE is IBM's WSAD that has a
>price tag of $3,5000 - the fact that they are selling this which such a
>cost should give you an idea about how much it will take for him to
>achieve a complete Eclipse solution on your own.
>
>Another point in favor of JDeveloper is that you get official support,
>training and documentation. Who provides these for Eclipse??
>
>As Steve mentioned earlier, beyond just the basic features there are the
>frameworks that come with JDeveloper such as BC4J (now Oracle ADF
>Business Components) and UIX (now Oracle ADF UIX). This type of
>frameworks saves your team a lot of development of infrastructure. Most
>of the other frameworks that do similar things out in the market will
>have a runtime cost to them. This is not the case with these framework
>that you get with the JDeveloper development license. And by the way
>these frameworks work with other databases and other application servers
>(Just look at the OTN discussion forum to see people asking question
>about their implementation with non Oracle deployments).
>
>OK, this is already a long email so I'll cut it here.
>I hope this helps.
>
>Shay.
>
>VJaen wrote:
>
>
>Does Eclipse have any UI Editors, Wizards, Diagramers for JSP, Web
>Services, Servlets, UML, Swing/JClients, JavaBeans, etc.?
>
>
>
>I need to know what you can get from JDeveloper that ypu can't from
>Eclipse and NetBeans. And of course, these features must be availlables
>for java apps accesing non-Oracle databases.
>
>
>
>Thanks!
>
>
>
>===========================
>
>Victor R. Jaen G.
>
>Panama Canal Authority
>
>E-Mail: vjaen@pancanal.com <mailto:vjaen@pancanal.com>
>
>===========================
>
>
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<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
Roel,<br>
I'm not sure how much pull you have at Redwood Shores but, to echo a
point first mentioned today be John Caputo, if you folks could release
source on the generators that would go a huge way towards easing your
existing clientele's "separation anxiety" because we know Oracle's
future tool focus is not on Designer. Even if it were undocumented,
unsupported and for any 3rd party parts you just left holes and said
"we used version x of commercial library z" and left it to the
community to acquire or reproduce those libraries we'ed be a step of
where we are now. <br>
There are enough WSGL'ers (for example) that we'd have a big enough
community to maintain the tool and fix some long-standing bugs. We'd
then turn into envangalists for you guys instead of constant carpers.
Give it a thought.<br>
Roel Stalman wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="midF001.005D8B33.20031203150921@fatcity.com">
<meta content="text/html;" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<title></title>
Mike,<br>
<br>
Oracle has been in the tools business for over 20 years. During that
period, there have been tremendous changes in technology (such as the
Internet), resulting in the need for different tools offerings. Oracle
is no different than any other tools vendor in that respect. We are
very commited to Java and both our Application Server and Tools
strategy are built on it. You will see strong product offerings in
those areas. In addition, we are commited to support our other tools:
Forms, Reports, and Designer.<br>
<br>
Yes, Bill Dwight has left Oracle. But that's life, people move on. He
had been with the company for more than 12 years. We have a new Tools
VP, Christophe Job, who has been in the tools business for most of his
career and who should be familiar to many ODTUG members.<br>
<br>
If you look at JDeveloper 10g, you can see that there is a strong
direction to make the product more productive and less complex. The
tool is becoming much more visual and declarative, something that has
been requested by many ODTUG members, as well as JDeveloper and Forms
users in general. This has been our strategy all along and we are
delivering the first installment with 10g and will continue that going
forward.<br>
<br>
Finally, our executives are very committed to tools. We need tools to
help developers build applications for the Oracle platform. We need
tools to develop Oracle Applications. And last but not least, we are
convinced that we can build world class tools for any developer.<br>
<br>
Roel Stalman,<br>
Oracle Corporation.<br>
<br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------
<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" align="right" valign="baseline">Subject: </th>
<td>Oracle Tools non-direction (was Eclipse IDE)</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" align="right" valign="baseline">Date: </th>
<td>Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:14:26 -0800</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" align="right" valign="baseline">From: </th>
<td>Openshaw, Mike <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:Mike.Openshaw@Delinea.com"><Mike.Openshaw@Delinea.com></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" align="right" valign="baseline">Reply-To: </th>
<td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:ODTUG-JAVA-L@fatcity.com">ODTUG-JAVA-L@fatcity.com</a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" align="right" valign="baseline">Organization:
</th>
<td>Fat City Network Services, San Diego, California</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" align="right" valign="baseline">To: </th>
<td>Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" \
href="mailto:ODTUG-JAVA-L@fatcity.com"><ODTUG-JAVA-L@fatcity.com></a></td> \
</tr> </tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<pre>Sorry to chime in on this one, but there are a few unspoken issues here.
One is that Eclipse is managed as an open source application, which has
strengths and weaknesses that most of us are aware of. You never have to
worry about it becoming vendor-specific, but improvements are undirected.
There is no question that JDev is a more complete IDE and getting to be
robust. My main concern that Oracle Corp. itself has a history of
discarding and/or marginalizing Tool users (Need I go through the history?
PowerObjects, Sedona, Cherokee, Designer, Client/Server Forms, etc.).
Worse, Oracle seems to be on a complete bent to marginalize *any* further
tool advances within itself (the departure of Bill Dwight should be taken as
a *big* sign; JDev was his pride and joy.) There hasn't been any stated
tools direction from Oracle (except that JDev will rule the world, someday)
for quite some time and current Oracle upper management does not even
*mention* Tools in any of its pronouncements.
We need something for the top dogs, guys, to get at least the tiniest 'warm
fuzzy' about sticking with Oracle tools.
-----Original Message-----
To: Multiple recipients of list ODTUG-JAVA-L
Sent: 12/3/2003 1:39 PM
I might not be completely objective here but I'll try ;-)
Eclipse's two main advantages are:
A great code editor for Java (although JDeveloper in 10g has many of the
same features in its code editor).
It's free.
Most of the people who use it are people who would feel comfortable
coding a J2EE application with notepad and are just looking for a better
code editor. Eclipse's focus is on coding features.
JDeveloper on the other hand provides you with utilities and frameworks
that actually save you the coding.This is where the real productivity
comes into play.
Eclipse doesn't have things like JDeveloper's:
Visual UML that generates code
Visual editor for Swing or HTML/JSP
Visual Struts page flow modeler
Visual Database designer
Code profiling and optimization
PL/SQL development capabilities
Web services wizards
and the list goes on...
There are people and companies developing extensions to Eclipse and this
is the way you are suppose to get some of these features. But this
brings up a different set of problems.
Basically, the end user ends up trying to paste together a complete IDE
from sporadic pieces (that are usually not free). How much time and
effort is it going to take to create a complete IDE like JDeveloper and
how much effort will it take to manage this final collection of
extensions? What happens when one piece is upgraded and the other is
not, or when one of the open source extension is not being developed
anymore, or one of the small companies that developed an extension you
chose goes out of business?).
The equivalent of a complete Eclipse based IDE is IBM's WSAD that has a
price tag of $3,5000 - the fact that they are selling this which such a
cost should give you an idea about how much it will take for him to
achieve a complete Eclipse solution on your own.
Another point in favor of JDeveloper is that you get official support,
training and documentation. Who provides these for Eclipse??
As Steve mentioned earlier, beyond just the basic features there are the
frameworks that come with JDeveloper such as BC4J (now Oracle ADF
Business Components) and UIX (now Oracle ADF UIX). This type of
frameworks saves your team a lot of development of infrastructure. Most
of the other frameworks that do similar things out in the market will
have a runtime cost to them. This is not the case with these framework
that you get with the JDeveloper development license. And by the way
these frameworks work with other databases and other application servers
(Just look at the OTN discussion forum to see people asking question
about their implementation with non Oracle deployments).
OK, this is already a long email so I'll cut it here.
I hope this helps.
Shay.
VJaen wrote:
Does Eclipse have any UI Editors, Wizards, Diagramers for JSP, Web
Services, Servlets, UML, Swing/JClients, JavaBeans, etc.?
I need to know what you can get from JDeveloper that ypu can't from
Eclipse and NetBeans. And of course, these features must be availlables
for java apps accesing non-Oracle databases.
Thanks!
===========================
Victor R. Jaen G.
Panama Canal Authority
E-Mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:vjaen@pancanal.com">vjaen@pancanal.com</a> <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" \
href="mailto:vjaen@pancanal.com"><mailto:vjaen@pancanal.com></a>
===========================
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>
--
ODTUG Now 2004, Let Us Show you How! June 20-24, 2004 at the Westin Kierland
Resort, Scottsdale, Arizona Visit http://www.odtug.com for details.
--
Author: Jason King
INET: jhking@airmail.net
Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services
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