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List: ngw
Subject: Re: [ngw] GroupWise migration toExchange -PROJECT ISSTILL DEAD
From: "Mary Boland" <BOLANDM () stgeorge ! com ! au>
Date: 2008-08-29 0:32:14
Message-ID: 48B7D02D.B112.0019.0 () stgeorge ! com ! au
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Hi Faith
Thank you for that advice...we do plan to use Quest.
We are very sad about losing GW - but I'm afraid it seems a "fait
accompli" :(
Mary
> > > <faith@binaryfun.com> 29/08/2008 10:01 am >>>
Sorry all to chime in with a different tangent but it's been my
unfortunate and sad lot in life to have done several Groupwise to
Exchange
conversions over the last few years and I highly recommend the Qwest
migration tool - it's like 10bucks a mailbox and they do a pretty
decent
job of making it less painful (used to be called wingra). As a
consultant
who bills by the hour on these things, it's not in my interest to use
a
3rd party tool - but I've done it without and with, and I'm much more
interested in the migration going well than billing tons of hours, so
I
tell my clients upfront that they should just pony up for the tool.
(no, I'm not a shill for qwest - it's just the best one I have used,
and
I've done some thorny, nasty, cranky user base migrations)
Sorry to see you leaving GW because Exchange is a whole other ball of
wax
and is much more of a drama queen than even GWIA is ;-)
> Hi Tom and Paul
>
> Paul - thank you again - !
>
> Tom - I'd love any information anyone can supply. You can send to
me
> offline of you like.
> Many thanks in advance.
> Mary
>
>
>
> Mary Boland
> Senior Messaging Analyst
>
> Ph: 02 95523215
> Fax:
> Mob: 0411300350
> St George Bank
> Ground Floor, 4-16 Montgomery Street, Kogarah 2217
> Email: bolandm@stgeorge.com.au
>
> St.George Bank- Good with people. Good with money.
> www.stgeorge.com.au ( http://stgeorge.com.au/ )
>
>
> > > > "Tom Miller" <TMiller@hnncsb.org> 28/08/2008 11:14 pm >>>
> Paul, that's interesting that it was recommended to you to route
mail
> first to Exchange then to GroupWise. When I did a migration a few
years
> back we used the API gateway and the Exchange connector (Exchange
2000
> at the time). We had it set up just like your shop: users in
Exchange
> were contacts in GW and vice versa. Mail sent to JohnX@myorg.org
that
> was on the Exchange side got to him fine, but we had to tell users
when
> doing reply, re-type the address, as the return path *sometimes"
failed
> (it was too long).
>
> I have some old docs on how I set it up if anyone really wants some
> boring reading.
>
> Tom
>
> > > > "Paul Caron" <CARONP@mmc.org> 8/28/2008 9:08 AM >>>
> Good. Pick up the penny.
>
> Exchange shouldn't have the problem, because it would receive the
email
> and push it through the connector, which knows about Exchange. (I
say
> shouldn't because we never got to try rerouting all of our email
from
> the internet from going to GroupWise first to Exchange first. Aside
> from the budget issue for Exchange, making that move, even
temporarily,
> would risk losing email. We truly need to test the entire
redirection
> in email flow in a lab environment first).
>
> Again, the sex appeal is to go to Exchange 2007. Both connectors (MS
&
> Novell) work directly with Exchange 2003. That means that if your
users
> are on the Exchange 2007 servers, you will not able to perform busy
> searches from GroupWise against their calendars. So if busy search
is
> critical, you may have to stage your users in Exchange 2003 until
> they're all there, then move them all up to Exchange 2007 (using the
> Powershell, you could spread the users out evenly amongst your
servers).
> By rerouting the SMTP email to Exchange first, if there is no user
> account for the recipient in question but there is a contact, the
email
> should go through the connector and over to the GroupWise user.
>
> Bottom line, test, test, test.
>
> Paul Caron, CNE, MCSE
> Messaging Architect
> Maine Medical Center
> caronp@mmc.org
> 207-662-6666
>
>
> The Red Green Show quotes
>
> "If it ain't broke, don't lend it."
>
> "If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you
> handy!"
>
>
> > > > On 8/27/2008 at 8:47 PM, "Mary Boland" <BOLANDM@stgeorge.com.au>
> wrote:
> Thanks again Paul - NOW the penny has dropped! I see what you
mean!!
> Sorry to be a bit slow...
>
> I know nothing about Exchange - but wouldn't it have the same
problem:
> Our GW users would be contacts in Exchange also? Wouldn't the
connector
> still have the same problem coming from Exchange?
>
> Thanks in advance
> Mary
>
> > > > "Paul Caron" <CARONP@mmc.org> 27/08/2008 10:26 pm >>>
> My issue that we saw was that the internet email could not make it
> through the MS Connector at all. The headers are not what the
connector
> expects and it gets confused and won't deliver the email to the
Exchange
> user. The basic assumption with the MS Connector is that all email
> originates within GroupWise, as the internet was not very prevalent
> during the time when the connector was built.
>
> The way the connector worked in our configuration was that the GWIA
> would have an email for user@mydomain.com and look it up in the
> GroupWise address book, found it as a GroupWise contact (black and
white
> user icon in ConsoleOne), pointing to the Exchange connector and
sending
> the email through the MS Connector. The connector, not knowing
about
> internet email (or email originating outside of GroupWise), doesn't
know
> how to process the email with the headers as they are and fails to
> deliver it.
>
> The recommendation was to pipe ALL internet email to Exchange first
and
> then have it route it over to GroupWise if the user does not exist
on
> Exchange.
>
> All so much fun!
>
> Paul Caron, CNE, MCSE
> Messaging Architect
> Maine Medical Center
> caronp@mmc.org
> 207-662-6666
>
>
> The Red Green Show quotes
>
> "If it ain't broke, don't lend it."
>
> "If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you
> handy!"
>
>
> > > > On 8/27/2008 at 1:25 AM, "Mary Boland" <BOLANDM@stgeorge.com.au>
> wrote:
> Thanks Paul,
> We plan on using the MS connector at this stage (though we are still
in
> the investigation stage). We will also use Quest for migration.
> As for incoming internet email, unless I'm missing something,
"forward
> all undeliverables" at the GWIA should work:
> eg bolandm@mydomain.com is migrated to Exchange - this user is no
> longer a part of the GW system. When an internet email arrives at
the
> GWIA for this user it will be forwarded to Exchange for delivery and
> then hopefully delivered as this is now an Exchange user.
>
> Of course you do raise the very good point of "internal email that
did
> not originate from within GroupWise". Not sure how to handle that
one -
> will the GWIA treat it as undeliverable and forward to Exchange?
>
> Eventually we will point all incoming email to Exchange.
>
> Mary
>
>
> > > > "Paul Caron" <CARONP@mmc.org> 27/08/2008 12:45 pm >>>
> Which connector are you going to use? Novell's or Microsoft's?
> Microsoft's will allow you to use Quest's migration software, but
can't
> deliver internet email to Exchange users without redirecting
internet
> email (our two Exchange users received NO internet email during the
test
> period - that also included internal email that did not originate
from
> within GroupWise, like our email from the Helpdesk software).
Novell's
> will do much better, properly configured, but has not been tested
with
> the Quest software.
>
> Paul
>
> Paul Caron, CNE, MCSE
> Messaging Architect
> Maine Medical Center
> caronp@mmc.org
> 207-662-6666
>
>
> The Red Green Show quotes
>
> "If it ain't broke, don't lend it."
>
> "If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you
> handy!"
>
>
> > > > On 8/26/2008 at 7:20 PM, "Mary Boland" <BOLANDM@stgeorge.com.au>
> wrote:
> Hi Paul and Tom...
>
> Thanks very much for the feedback.
>
> I was planning to retain the Internet infrastructure as is for the
> moment and add the switch "forward all undeliverables" in the GWIA
to
> deliver incoming internet email to users we have moved to Exchange.
>
> Of course at some stage we would need to point all internet mail to
> Exchange - but in the initial stages we will have many more
GroupWise
> users than Exchange users - we have 10,000 users.
> Do you think this approach is ok?
> Thanks
> Mary
>
>
> > > > "Tom Miller" <TMiller@hnncsb.org> 26/08/2008 1:14 am >>>
> I think when I did a migration a few years ago we created contacts
in
> Active Directory for the connector to find. That worked well enough
but
> really messed up the return path. And the Exchange side kept halting
on
> "bad" messages. So every 30 minutes or so we had to manually check
the
> queue to be sure it was not stuck.
>
> > > > "Paul Caron" <CARONP@mmc.org> 8/25/2008 10:12 AM >>>
> Hi Mary. The article you mention is really great and goes step by
step
> very well. Here's the main drawback of using the deployment as
> specified in that article:
>
> It requires the Microsoft GroupWise connector, which uses the
GroupWise
> 4.x APIs to move email back and forth. The main issue we discovered
here
> after setting up the Microsoft Connector is that internet email was
not
> around when that API was written, so incoming internet email was
> undeliverable. Quest had very little options, though they suggested
we
> reroute our entire mail flow so that all Internet email would be
> delivered first to the Exchange server and if the user did not exist
on
> Exchange, to push it over to GroupWise. Another idea that was
suggested
> was to dump the email on the Exchange 2003 server and let it route
the
> email using SMTP - that way, only the email that needed to cross the
> Gateway to get to Exchange would do so and the rest would be relayed
to
> the GWIA.
>
> So if you're not using Internet email, you're all set. Otherwise,
you
> need to get very creative in getting Internet Email to your Exchange
> users.
>
> > > > On 8/24/2008 at 8:23 PM, "Mary Boland" <BOLANDM@stgeorge.com.au>
> wrote:
> Hi all
>
> We are going through the same here. Here are some great articles
which
> I am still reading...
>
>
http://www.msexchange.org/articles_tutorials/exchange-server-2007/migration-deployment/groupwise-exchange-2007-interoperability-migration-part1.html
>
>
> Regards
> Mary
>
> > > > "Paul Caron" <CARONP@mmc.org> 25/06/2008 5:09 am >>>
> The CoolSolutions article was published today:
>
>
http://www.novell.com/communities/node/5073/groupwise-7-migration-exchange-2007-Ã \
¢Ã‚€Â"-notes-failed-migration
>
>
>
> Sorry to keep beating this story out, but I don't want to see
someone
> else in the same predicament, if they can avoid it.
>
>
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<DIV>Hi Faith</DIV>
<DIV>Thank you for that advice...we do plan to use Quest.</DIV>
<DIV>We are very sad about losing GW - but I'm afraid it seems a "fait accompli" \
:(</DIV> <DIV>Mary<BR><BR>>>> <faith@binaryfun.com> 29/08/2008 10:01 \
am >>><BR>Sorry all to chime in with a different tangent but it's been \
my<BR>unfortunate and sad lot in life to have done several Groupwise to \
Exchange<BR>conversions over the last few years and I highly recommend the \
Qwest<BR>migration tool - it's like 10bucks a mailbox and they do a pretty \
decent<BR>job of making it less painful (used to be called wingra). As a \
consultant<BR>who bills by the hour on these things, it's not in my interest to use \
a<BR>3rd party tool - but I've done it without and with, and I'm much \
more<BR>interested in the migration going well than billing tons of hours, so \
I<BR>tell my clients upfront that they should just pony up for the tool.<BR><BR>(no, \
I'm not a shill for qwest - it's just the best one I have used, and<BR>I've done some \
thorny, nasty, cranky user base migrations)<BR><BR>Sorry to see you leaving GW \
because Exchange is a whole other ball of wax<BR>and is much more of a drama queen \
than even GWIA is ;-)<BR><BR><BR><BR>> Hi Tom and Paul<BR>><BR>> Paul - \
thank you again - !<BR>><BR>> Tom - I'd love any information anyone can \
supply. You can send to me<BR>> offline of you like.<BR>> Many thanks in \
advance.<BR>> Mary<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Mary Boland<BR>> Senior \
Messaging Analyst<BR>><BR>> Ph: 02 95523215<BR>> Fax:<BR>> Mob: \
0411300350<BR>> St George Bank<BR>> Ground Floor, 4-16 Montgomery Street, \
Kogarah 2217<BR>> Email: bolandm@stgeorge.com.au<BR>><BR>> St.George Bank- \
Good with people. Good with money.<BR>> www.stgeorge.com.au ( <A \
href="http://stgeorge.com.au/">http://stgeorge.com.au/</A> \
)<BR>><BR>><BR>>>>> "Tom Miller" <TMiller@hnncsb.org> \
28/08/2008 11:14 pm >>><BR>> Paul, that's interesting that it was \
recommended to you to route mail<BR>> first to Exchange then to GroupWise. \
When I did a migration a few years<BR>> back we used the API gateway and the \
Exchange connector (Exchange 2000<BR>> at the time). We had it set up just \
like your shop: users in Exchange<BR>> were contacts in GW and vice \
versa. Mail sent to JohnX@myorg.org that<BR>> was on the Exchange side got \
to him fine, but we had to tell users when<BR>> doing reply, re-type the address, \
as the return path *sometimes" failed<BR>> (it was too long).<BR>><BR>> I \
have some old docs on how I set it up if anyone really wants some<BR>> boring \
reading.<BR>><BR>> Tom<BR>><BR>>>>> "Paul Caron" \
<CARONP@mmc.org> 8/28/2008 9:08 AM >>><BR>> Good. Pick up the \
penny.<BR>><BR>> Exchange shouldn't have the problem, because it would receive \
the email<BR>> and push it through the connector, which knows about \
Exchange. (I say<BR>> shouldn't because we never got to try rerouting all of \
our email from<BR>> the internet from going to GroupWise first to Exchange \
first. Aside<BR>> from the budget issue for Exchange, making that move, even \
temporarily,<BR>> would risk losing email. We truly need to test the entire \
redirection<BR>> in email flow in a lab environment first).<BR>><BR>> Again, \
the sex appeal is to go to Exchange 2007. Both connectors (MS &<BR>> \
Novell) work directly with Exchange 2003. That means that if your users<BR>> \
are on the Exchange 2007 servers, you will not able to perform busy<BR>> searches \
from GroupWise against their calendars. So if busy search is<BR>> critical, \
you may have to stage your users in Exchange 2003 until<BR>> they're all there, \
then move them all up to Exchange 2007 (using the<BR>> Powershell, you could \
spread the users out evenly amongst your servers).<BR>> By rerouting the \
SMTP email to Exchange first, if there is no user<BR>> account for the recipient \
in question but there is a contact, the email<BR>> should go through the connector \
and over to the GroupWise user.<BR>><BR>> Bottom line, test, test, \
test.<BR>><BR>> Paul Caron, CNE, MCSE<BR>> Messaging Architect<BR>> Maine \
Medical Center<BR>> caronp@mmc.org<BR>> 207-662-6666<BR>><BR>><BR>> \
The Red Green Show quotes<BR>><BR>> "If it ain't broke, don't lend \
it."<BR>><BR>> "If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find \
you<BR>> handy!"<BR>><BR>><BR>>>>> On 8/27/2008 at 8:47 PM, \
"Mary Boland" <BOLANDM@stgeorge.com.au><BR>> wrote:<BR>> Thanks again \
Paul - NOW the penny has dropped! I see what you mean!!<BR>> Sorry to be a \
bit slow...<BR>><BR>> I know nothing about Exchange - but wouldn't it have the \
same problem:<BR>> Our GW users would be contacts in Exchange also? Wouldn't \
the connector<BR>> still have the same problem coming from \
Exchange?<BR>><BR>> Thanks in advance<BR>> Mary<BR>><BR>>>>> \
"Paul Caron" <CARONP@mmc.org> 27/08/2008 10:26 pm >>><BR>> My issue \
that we saw was that the internet email could not make it<BR>> through the MS \
Connector at all. The headers are not what the connector<BR>> expects and it \
gets confused and won't deliver the email to the Exchange<BR>> user. The \
basic assumption with the MS Connector is that all email<BR>> originates within \
GroupWise, as the internet was not very prevalent<BR>> during the time when the \
connector was built.<BR>><BR>> The way the connector worked in our \
configuration was that the GWIA<BR>> would have an email for user@mydomain.com and \
look it up in the<BR>> GroupWise address book, found it as a GroupWise contact \
(black and white<BR>> user icon in ConsoleOne), pointing to the Exchange connector \
and sending<BR>> the email through the MS Connector. The connector, not \
knowing about<BR>> internet email (or email originating outside of GroupWise), \
doesn't know<BR>> how to process the email with the headers as they are and fails \
to<BR>> deliver it.<BR>><BR>> The recommendation was to pipe ALL internet \
email to Exchange first and<BR>> then have it route it over to GroupWise if the \
user does not exist on<BR>> Exchange.<BR>><BR>> All so much \
fun!<BR>><BR>> Paul Caron, CNE, MCSE<BR>> Messaging Architect<BR>> Maine \
Medical Center<BR>> caronp@mmc.org<BR>> 207-662-6666<BR>><BR>><BR>> \
The Red Green Show quotes<BR>><BR>> "If it ain't broke, don't lend \
it."<BR>><BR>> "If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find \
you<BR>> handy!"<BR>><BR>><BR>>>>> On 8/27/2008 at 1:25 AM, \
"Mary Boland" <BOLANDM@stgeorge.com.au><BR>> wrote:<BR>> Thanks \
Paul,<BR>> We plan on using the MS connector at this stage (though we are still \
in<BR>> the investigation stage). We will also use Quest for \
migration.<BR>> As for incoming internet email, unless I'm missing something, \
"forward<BR>> all undeliverables" at the GWIA should work:<BR>> eg \
bolandm@mydomain.com is migrated to Exchange - this user is no<BR>> longer a \
part of the GW system. When an internet email arrives at the<BR>> GWIA for \
this user it will be forwarded to Exchange for delivery and<BR>> then hopefully \
delivered as this is now an Exchange user.<BR>><BR>> Of course you do raise the \
very good point of "internal email that did<BR>> not originate from within \
GroupWise". Not sure how to handle that one -<BR>> will the GWIA treat it as \
undeliverable and forward to Exchange?<BR>><BR>> Eventually we will point all \
incoming email to Exchange.<BR>><BR>> Mary<BR>><BR>><BR>>>>> \
"Paul Caron" <CARONP@mmc.org> 27/08/2008 12:45 pm >>><BR>> Which \
connector are you going to use? Novell's or Microsoft's?<BR>> Microsoft's \
will allow you to use Quest's migration software, but can't<BR>> deliver internet \
email to Exchange users without redirecting internet<BR>> email (our two Exchange \
users received NO internet email during the test<BR>> period - that also included \
internal email that did not originate from<BR>> within GroupWise, like our email \
from the Helpdesk software). Novell's<BR>> will do much better, properly \
configured, but has not been tested with<BR>> the Quest software.<BR>><BR>> \
Paul<BR>><BR>> Paul Caron, CNE, MCSE<BR>> Messaging Architect<BR>> Maine \
Medical Center<BR>> caronp@mmc.org<BR>> 207-662-6666<BR>><BR>><BR>> \
The Red Green Show quotes<BR>><BR>> "If it ain't broke, don't lend \
it."<BR>><BR>> "If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find \
you<BR>> handy!"<BR>><BR>><BR>>>>> On 8/26/2008 at 7:20 PM, \
"Mary Boland" <BOLANDM@stgeorge.com.au><BR>> wrote:<BR>> Hi Paul and \
Tom...<BR>><BR>> Thanks very much for the feedback.<BR>><BR>> I was \
planning to retain the Internet infrastructure as is for the<BR>> moment and add \
the switch "forward all undeliverables" in the GWIA to<BR>> deliver incoming \
internet email to users we have moved to Exchange.<BR>><BR>> Of course at some \
stage we would need to point all internet mail to<BR>> Exchange - but in the \
initial stages we will have many more GroupWise<BR>> users than Exchange users - \
we have 10,000 users.<BR>> Do you think this approach is ok?<BR>> \
Thanks<BR>> Mary<BR>><BR>><BR>>>>> "Tom Miller" \
<TMiller@hnncsb.org> 26/08/2008 1:14 am >>><BR>> I think when I did \
a migration a few years ago we created contacts in<BR>> Active Directory for the \
connector to find. That worked well enough but<BR>> really messed up the \
return path. And the Exchange side kept halting on<BR>> "bad" \
messages. So every 30 minutes or so we had to manually check the<BR>> queue \
to be sure it was not stuck.<BR>><BR>>>>> "Paul Caron" \
<CARONP@mmc.org> 8/25/2008 10:12 AM >>><BR>> Hi Mary. The \
article you mention is really great and goes step by step<BR>> very well. \
Here's the main drawback of using the deployment as<BR>> specified in that \
article:<BR>><BR>> It requires the Microsoft GroupWise connector, which uses \
the GroupWise<BR>> 4.x APIs to move email back and forth. The main issue we \
discovered here<BR>> after setting up the Microsoft Connector is that internet \
email was not<BR>> around when that API was written, so incoming internet email \
was<BR>> undeliverable. Quest had very little options, though they suggested \
we<BR>> reroute our entire mail flow so that all Internet email would be<BR>> \
delivered first to the Exchange server and if the user did not exist on<BR>> \
Exchange, to push it over to GroupWise. Another idea that was suggested<BR>> was \
to dump the email on the Exchange 2003 server and let it route the<BR>> email \
using SMTP - that way, only the email that needed to cross the<BR>> Gateway to get \
to Exchange would do so and the rest would be relayed to<BR>> the \
GWIA.<BR>><BR>> So if you're not using Internet email, you're all set. \
Otherwise, you<BR>> need to get very creative in getting Internet Email to your \
Exchange<BR>> users.<BR>><BR>>>>> On 8/24/2008 at 8:23 PM, "Mary \
Boland" <BOLANDM@stgeorge.com.au><BR>> wrote:<BR>> Hi all<BR>><BR>> \
We are going through the same here. Here are some great articles which<BR>> \
I am still reading...<BR>><BR>> <A \
href="http://www.msexchange.org/articles_tutorials/exchange">http://www.msexchange.org \
/articles_tutorials/exchange</A>-server-2007/migration-deployment/groupwise-exchange-2007-interoperability-migration-part1.html<BR>><BR>><BR>> \
Regards<BR>> Mary<BR>><BR>>>>> "Paul Caron" <CARONP@mmc.org> \
25/06/2008 5:09 am >>><BR>> The CoolSolutions article was published \
today:<BR>><BR>> <A \
href="http://www.novell.com/communities/node/5073/groupwise">http://www.novell.com/communities/node/5073/groupwise</A>-7-migration-exchange-2007-Ã \
¢Ã‚€Â"-notes-failed-migration<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Sorry to keep \
beating this story out, but I don't want to see someone<BR>> else in the same \
predicament, if they can avoid it.<BR>><BR>><BR>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: \
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