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List:       nfr-users
Subject:    Administrivia
From:       Kent Landfield <kent () nfr ! net>
Date:       1999-06-23 17:35:58
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OK...  Up to this point the list has not been moderated for content. 
Basically everything that came in that was not spam or product 
announcements went out. I can see now this list does need a bit
more care and feeding. I will point people at the mailing list 
archives in the future if previously discussed topics arise.

I am going to be putting a stop to the linux thread as it is no longer
(if ever) productive. I respectfully request that all parties take a 
deep breath and drop this thread.  This goes for you too Marcus.

I will take this time to summarize the messages in the queue which are
appropriate to the topic.

------
Marcus Ranum writes:
#
# I'll give you $4,000 and a cool NFR T-shirt if you write a 
# zero copy-per-packet input bpf emulation for Linux.

------
RDawes@dtt.co.za (Rogan Dawes) forwarded a message to the Linux kernel
mailing list and relayed the response below:

# Subject: Re: Linux and Network Flight Recorder
# Author:  Chris Wing <wingc@engin.umich.edu> at Internet-SA
# Date:    99/06/22 11:40 AM
# 
# > Is anyone interested in getting $4000 for writing a good BPF 
# > implementation for Linux?
# 
# Actually, it's already been done:
# 
# ftp://ftp.inr.ac.ru/ip-routing/lbl-tools/kernel-turbopacket.dif.gz 
# ftp://ftp.inr.ac.ru/ip-routing/lbl-tools/libpcap-0.4-current.dif.gz
# 
# (the master site is in Russia and pretty slow, so try a mirror:) 
# ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/mirrors/ftp.inr.ac.ru/ip-routing/ 
# ftp://ftp.crc.ca/pub/systems/linux/ip-routing/ 
# ftp://ftp.src.uchicago.edu/pub/linux/ip-routing/
# 
# Alexey Kuznetsov wrote an extension to Linux 2.2 called 'turbopacket' that 
# effectively fixes the problems NFR complains about with Linux:
# 
# (1) it allows you to grab a chunk of packets at a time, instead of 
# requiring one system call per packet
# 
# (2) it reports loss statistics
# 
# It also should be more efficient than BPF in plain BSD, because it 
# eliminates the extra copy required to buffer the character device between 
# kernel and user. "turbopacket" writes the captured data directly to a user 
# buffer which is mapped into kernel space.
# 
# Only problem-- I've never tried it out, so I don't know how well it works 
# or performs. I've only looked at the code :)

------
Greg Shipley <gshipley@neohapsis.com> writes:

# What HAS come out of this, which *IS* positive:
# 
# 1. Some good info about performance testing of Linux vs. *BSD:
# http://www.anzen.com/products/nfr/testing/
# 
# 2. Some info about the problems with Linux's libpcap problem(s):
# http://www.nfr.net/nfr/nfr-2.0.2-commercial/SYSTEM_NOTES.html#LinuxGeneral
# 
# 3. A link to some kernel patches that may help the Linux performance 
#    problem: ftp.inr.ac.ru/ip-routing/lbl-tools
# 
# 4. Some discussion on how to get it compiled on RH 6.0 (no confirmation
#    on it working yet, however)
# 
# 5. An offer (joke?) to pay someone to fix the Linux code by Marcus.

# So, for the record:
# 
# - Linux has a large user base, and that base is growing.
# - Linux isn't the best for everything (I don't think anyone was saying
#   this, but I feel the need to state this, based on the tones of recent
#   messages).
# - NFR doesn't like/support NFR on Linux because of the libpcap problems.
# - NFR isn't going to fix the problem.
# - The preferred Intel platform is OpenBSD for speed, FreeBSD for SMP
#   support.

------
Marcus Ranum writes:
#
# We've probably invested 2 man-years in Linux and NT ports and support. 
# Which is a lot, given that we're a small company. It's frustrating
# because nobody _sees_ that, all they see is something to complain about.

------
Joseph W. Shaw - jshaw@insync.net writes:
#
# Using NFR on the proper platform shows you how amazing the product is.
# Using NFR on the wrong platform gives the impression it's a bad product.
# Try putting NFR on the same machine running both RedHat|Slackware|Debian
# or {Free|Net|Open}BSD.  You'll be supprised at the difference in
# performance, and I highly reccomend you try it first hand.

------
Jan-Philip Velders <jpv@jvelders.tn.tudelft.nl>
#
# NFR has stated that they do not recommend Linux, because Linux' network
# code isn't as good as the *BSD ones (whoever says that Linux has the best
# network stack really needs to read some technical papers... I'm a Linux
# enthousiast, I'm a member of a Dutch Linux UG, _but_ I'm very aware of the
# fact that the most stable and fast IP/network stack is in the *BSD corner !)
# They have to sell NFR with stuff like 'Can handle 155 Mbit/s traffic at
# 100% load' etc. You need to know that the people who decide to buy NFR -
# management - will think that this applies to all NFR's platforms.
# It doesn't, but who knows, maybe in a year you can have Linux perform at
# 80% of a *BSD box...

------
John Horn <jhorn1@starfire.ci.tucson.az.us> writes:
#
# I would think there would be folks out there willing to write the improved
# code for Linux just to get one of those really nifty 'NFR' leather jackets
# you, Danny Farmer and other gurus wear to the USENIX security conferences.
# If I had the network coding skills and the time, I would. For those of you
# who haven't seen them, the jackets are 'way cool'.

------
Todd L. Montgomery <tmont@csee.wvu.edu> writes:
#
# In order to stem the flood of emails to me (both pro and con), let me
# adjust my statements and put one thing to rest.
# 
# My choice of words for NFR developers was incorrect. I was reacting
# to flames sent to others. Standing up for them, in effect. I admit
# to choosing the 'religious' term to get a reaction. I did.
# 
# I have seen Marcus' comments about Linux, NT, etc. and I agree with him
# and I understand his reasons. However, this issue keeps coming up
# for some reason......
# 
# There is serious demand for NFR on Linux!!!... that should be obvious now.
# I agree it is not the best choice, but for a lot of people, it meets 
# criteria and constraints they have.
# 
# Now I am going to happily go and install OpenBSD and get some work done.

One of the problems with this thread has been that it is impossible for
the community to really see what goes on here "behind the curtain". 
Shortly after Jim's first message I received a call from Marcus asking
that I help Jim make his redhat demo happen.  That was before the 
thread did the slippery slope slide...  Also, Mike has looked at the
ftp.inr.ac.ru/ip-routing/lbl-tools modifications and was pleased at what
he saw initially. 

Thanks to all who made my mailbox fun over the last couple days. ;)

And as Todd said, it's time to "get some work done".

-- 
Kent Landfield                -         Network Flight Recorder, Inc.
Email: kent@nfr.net           +         http://www.nfr.net/
Phone: 1-817-545-2502         -         Fax: 1-817-545-7650

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