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List: nanog
Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
From: Jay Hanke <jayhanke () gmail ! com>
Date: 2018-12-21 16:12:03
Message-ID: CAK6zc0nPQ=6pyKeCHnfxAwQ4zXEJ79fG=r-EhP21fEDwFLWo6g () mail ! gmail ! com
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MICE is technically a cooperative not a non-profit. The fees cover the
costs and just the costs and the members are owners.
Also MICE does not provide any transport. All transport to remote locations
is provided by the network hosting the remote switch.
Jay
On Fri, Dec 21, 2018, 9:16 AM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net wrote:
> Someone's typically paying the difference in a non-profit IX. Someone's
> donating piles of cash, free dark fiber, free colo, etc. You're either
> paying your own way, or you have a port subsidized by someone else. There's
> not necessarily anything wrong with that, but you have to make sure you
> count that when you talk about "cost".
>
> They're also over twice the size, and in half the number of buildings (per
> PeeringDB, anyway). They've also been around over twice as long. Scale
> helps with cost.
>
>
>
> -----
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> ------------------------------
> *From: *"Darin Steffl" <darin.steffl@mnwifi.com>
> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net>
> *Cc: *"Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet@akcin.net>, "NANOG Mailing List" <
> nanog@nanog.org>
> *Sent: *Friday, December 21, 2018 8:34:32 AM
> *Subject: *Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
>
> http://micemn.net/services.html
>
> MICE in Minneapolis is a great IX that we are on and their port fees are
> very reasonable. They used to be completely free up until this year. Even
> so, their fees are virtually nothing which encourages more operators to
> connect to it versus For-Profit IX's where sometimes the fees are almost as
> much as transit.
>
> For example Midwest-IX is $9,300 per year for a 10G port but MICE is only
> $250 per year. That's a HUGE difference and MICE also has way more peers
> and traffic overall due to how easy and cheap it is to join.
>
> On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 8:27 AM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
>
> > Not all transit is cheap and not all transit is good quality, regardless
> > of what it costs. ;-)
> >
> > At our IX, we regularly see clients whose total network usage goes up
> > once they're on the IX.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > Mike Hammett
> > Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> > <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> > <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> > <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> > Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> > <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> > <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> > The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> > <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> > <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> > ------------------------------
> > *From: *"Mehmet Akcin" <mehmet@akcin.net>
> > *To: *"Clayton Zekelman" <clayton@mnsi.net>
> > *Cc: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net>, "NANOG Mailing List" <
> > nanog@nanog.org>, "Tim Raphael" <raphael.timothy@gmail.com>
> > *Sent: *Friday, December 21, 2018 8:19:43 AM
> > *Subject: *Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
> >
> > Torix and Six are great examples.
> >
> > If you want to be for profit, make sure to publish port pricing and keep
> > it fair. Transit is cheap and good quality
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 08:14 Clayton Zekelman <clayton@mnsi.net> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful.
> > >
> > > https://www.torix.ca/
> > >
> > > A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service.
> > >
> > > Thave a very transparent process. Their pricing is listed up front on
> > > their website:
> > >
> > > https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote:
> > >
> > > As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which
> > > they're housed. People in NA seem to think there are only two kinds of
> > > IXes, Equinix, DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----
> > > Mike Hammett
> > > Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> > >
> > > Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> > >
> > > The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > > *From: *"Tim Raphael" <raphael.timothy@gmail.com>
> > > *To: *"NANOG Mailing List" <nanog@nanog.org>
> > > *Sent: *Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM
> > > *Subject: *Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
> > >
> > > The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and
> > > offer services (such as extended reach) that don’t have the same profit
> > > margins or ROI as for-profits.
> > > This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and
> > > fewer customers allowing them to grow and expand without increased
> > > aggregation or transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of
> > > providers and chips away at the monopolies in niche markets.
> > >
> > > The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader
> > > community and the Internet as a whole - especially somewhere like Australia
> > > which has unique constraints.
> > >
> > > Additionally, “Neutral†and For-Profit doesn’t always compute \
> > > in my mind, there will always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total
> > > neutrality.
> > > When a NFP is owned by it’s members there has to be 100% transparency
> > > in organisational decisions around member funds and resources which ensures
> > > accountability reliability.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > - Tim
> > >
> > >
> > > > On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns <bruns@2mbit.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote:
> > > > > Probably price. Also perception of value. If you're a for profit
> > > enterprise then they're paying for interconnection plus your bump. If
> > > you're non-profit the perception is that there is a larger value because
> > > there's no bump. Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the
> > > perception I've heard.
> > > >
> > > > Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to how
> > > the hospitals are here in Boise.
> > > >
> > > > The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, price gouging, etc.
> > > Their care can be pretty meh, esp since they bought up all the little
> > > independent clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic visit).
> > > >
> > > > The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals run a pretty tight ship,
> > > better value for their money, service is very good, and compete with one
> > > another for who has the best service.
> > > >
> > > > People think they are getting 'better' because they are going to a
> > > place that is supposed to be run to benefit people over profit, but alas,
> > > you'd be very very wrong.
> > > > --
> > > > Brielle Bruns
> > > > The Summit Open Source Development Group
> > > > http://www.sosdg.org / http://www.ahbl.org
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Clayton Zekelman
> > > Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi)
> > > 3363 Tecumseh Rd. E
> > > <https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4&entry=gmail&source=g>
> > > Windsor, Ontario
> > > <https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4&entry=gmail&source=g>
> > > N8W 1H4
> > > <https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4&entry=gmail&source=g>
> > >
> > > tel. 519-985-8410
> > > fax. 519-985-8409
> > >
> > --
> > Mehmet
> > +1-424-298-1903
> >
> >
>
> --
> Darin Steffl
> Minnesota WiFi
> www.mnwifi.com
> 507-634-WiFi
> <http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi> Like us on Facebook
> <http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi>
>
>
[Attachment #3 (text/html)]
<div dir="auto">MICE is technically a cooperative not a non-profit. The fees cover \
the costs and just the costs and the members are owners.<div \
dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Also MICE does not provide any transport. All \
transport to remote locations is provided by the network hosting the remote \
switch.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Jay</div></div><br><div \
class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Fri, Dec 21, 2018, 9:16 AM Mike Hammett <<a \
href="mailto:nanog@ics-il.net">nanog@ics-il.net</a> wrote:<br></div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc \
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div \
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000">Someone's \
typically paying the difference in a non-profit IX. Someone's donating piles of \
cash, free dark fiber, free colo, etc. You're either paying your own way, or you \
have a port subsidized by someone else. There's not necessarily anything wrong \
with that, but you have to make sure you count that when you talk about \
"cost".<div><br></div><div>They're also over twice the size, and in \
half the number of buildings (per PeeringDB, anyway). They've also been around \
over twice as long. Scale helps with cost.<br><br><div><span name="x"></span><br \
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Times New \
Roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;l \
etter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br \
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Times New \
Roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;l \
etter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span \
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Times New \
Roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;l \
etter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor \
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;display:inline!important;float:none">-----</span><br \
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Roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;l \
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etter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor \
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;display:inline!important;float:none">Mike \
Hammett</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Times New \
Roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;l \
etter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a \
href="http://www.ics-il.com/" style="font-family:'Times New \
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etter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" \
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Intelligent Computing Solutions</a><br \
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etter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a \
href="http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/" style="font-family:'Times New \
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etter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" \
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">The Brothers WISP</a><br \
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style="border:0pt none"></a><a \
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target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><img \
src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><span \
name="x"></span><br></div><hr id="m_328483936682538589zwchr"><div \
style="color:#000;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><b>From: \
</b>"Darin Steffl" <<a href="mailto:darin.steffl@mnwifi.com" \
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">darin.steffl@mnwifi.com</a>><br><b>To: \
</b>"Mike Hammett" <<a href="mailto:nanog@ics-il.net" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">nanog@ics-il.net</a>><br><b>Cc: </b>"Mehmet Akcin" \
<<a href="mailto:mehmet@akcin.net" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">mehmet@akcin.net</a>>, "NANOG Mailing List" <<a \
href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">nanog@nanog.org</a>><br><b>Sent: </b>Friday, December 21, 2018 \
8:34:32 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX<br><br><div \
dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><a href="http://micemn.net/services.html" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">http://micemn.net/services.html</a><br></div><div \
dir="ltr"><br></div><div>MICE in Minneapolis is a great IX that we are on and their \
port fees are very reasonable. They used to be completely free up until this year. \
Even so, their fees are virtually nothing which encourages more operators to connect \
to it versus For-Profit IX's where sometimes the fees are almost as much as \
transit.</div><div><br></div><div>For example Midwest-IX is $9,300 per year for a 10G \
port but MICE is only $250 per year. That's a HUGE difference and MICE also has \
way more peers and traffic overall due to how easy and cheap it is to \
join.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at \
8:27 AM Mike Hammett <<a href="mailto:nanog@ics-il.net" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">nanog@ics-il.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div \
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Not \
all transit is cheap and not all transit is good quality, regardless of what it \
costs. ;-)<br><br>At our IX, we regularly see clients whose total network usage goes \
up once they're on the IX.<br><br><div><span></span><br \
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Times New \
Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal; \
letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br \
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Times New \
Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal; \
letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span \
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Times New \
Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal; \
letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfo \
rm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline">-----</span><br \
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letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline">Mike \
Hammett</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"Times New \
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letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a \
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Roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal; \
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<div>
<br>
TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very
successful.<br><br>
<a href="https://www.torix.ca/" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">https://www.torix.ca/</a> <br><br>
A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of
service.<br><br>
Thave a very transparent process. Their pricing is listed up front
on their website:<br><br>
<a href="https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing</a><br><br>
<br><br>
At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="m_328483936682538589gmail-m_-42936882548855119m_5707732862739982715cite">As \
far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which they're housed. \
People in NA seem to think there are only two kinds of IXes, Equinix, DRT, Coresite \
types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types.<br><br>
<br><br>
-----<br>
Mike Hammett<br>
<a href="http://www.ics-il.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Intelligent \
Computing Solutions</a><br><br>
<a href="http://www.midwest-ix.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Midwest \
Internet Exchange</a><br><br>
<a href="http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">The \
Brothers WISP</a><br><br> <hr>
<b>From: </b>"Tim Raphael"
<<a href="mailto:raphael.timothy@gmail.com" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">raphael.timothy@gmail.com</a>><br> <b>To: </b>"NANOG Mailing \
List" <<a href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">nanog@nanog.org</a>><br> <b>Sent: </b>Thursday, December 20, 2018 \
8:39:42 PM<br> <b>Subject: </b>Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX<br><br>
The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and
offer services (such as extended reach) that don’t have the same profit
margins or ROI as for-profits.<br>
This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and
fewer customers allowing them to grow and expand without increased
aggregation or transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of
providers and chips away at the monopolies in niche markets.<br><br>
The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader
community and the Internet as a whole - especially somewhere like
Australia which has unique constraints.<br><br>
Additionally, “Neutral†and For-Profit doesn’t always compute in my
mind, there will always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total
neutrality.<br>
When a NFP is owned by it’s members there has to be 100% transparency
in organisational decisions around member funds and resources which
ensures accountability reliability.</blockquote></div><div><blockquote \
class="m_328483936682538589gmail-m_-42936882548855119m_5707732862739982715cite"><br><br>
- Tim<br><br>
<br>
> On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns <<a href="mailto:bruns@2mbit.com" \
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">bruns@2mbit.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote:<br>
>> Probably price. Also perception of value. If you're
a for profit enterprise then they're paying for interconnection plus your
bump. If you're non-profit the perception is that there is a larger
value because there's no bump. Whether that's true or not, who
knows but that's the perception I've heard.<br>
> <br>
> Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to
how the hospitals are here in Boise.<br>
> <br>
> The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, price gouging,
etc. Their care can be pretty meh, esp since they bought up all the
little independent clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic
visit).<br>
> <br>
> The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals run a pretty tight
ship, better value for their money, service is very good, and compete
with one another for who has the best service.<br>
> <br>
> People think they are getting 'better' because they are going to a
place that is supposed to be run to benefit people over profit, but alas,
you'd be very very wrong.<br>
> -- <br>
> Brielle Bruns<br>
> The Summit Open Source Development Group<br>
>
<a href="http://www.sosdg.org/" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">http://www.sosdg.org</a> /
<a href="http://www.ahbl.org/" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">http://www.ahbl.org</a> <br>
> <br><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<u></u><p><u></u>
-- <br><br>
Clayton Zekelman<br>
Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi)<br>
<a href="https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4&entry=gmail&source=g" \
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">3363 Tecumseh Rd. E</a><br><a \
href="https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4&entry=gmail&source=g" \
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"> Windsor, Ontario</a><br><a \
href="https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4&entry=gmail&source=g" \
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"> N8W 1H4</a><br><br>
tel. 519-985-8410<br>
fax.
519-985-8409<u></u> <u></u>
</p></div>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" \
class="m_328483936682538589gmail-m_-42936882548855119gmail_signature">Mehmet<br>+1-424-298-1903</div>
</div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div \
dir="ltr" class="m_328483936682538589gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Darin \
Steffl<div>Minnesota WiFi</div><div><a href="http://www.mnwifi.com/" target="_blank" \
rel="noreferrer">www.mnwifi.com</a></div><div>507-634-WiFi</div><div><a \
href="http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><img \
src="http://www.snoitulosten.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/facebook-small.jpg"></a> \
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Like \
us on Facebook</a></div></div></div> </div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div>
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