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Subject: Re: [MeeGo-dev] MeeGo Reconstructed - a plan of action and
From: Jeremiah Foster <jeremiah.foster () pelagicore ! com>
Date: 2011-10-04 18:33:39
Message-ID: CADVDRBh5n8uC5mFqLwHxUD5hVevzDcZUDR2hzR1FURxN=irSWQ () mail ! gmail ! com
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On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Samuel Stirtzel
<s.stirtzel@googlemail.com>wrote:
[snip]
>
> 2011/10/4 Jeremiah Foster <jeremiah.foster@pelagicore.com>:
> >> OBS is built with packaging in mind, so it builds packages locally and
> >> on servers in a sanitized environment. Scratchbox may be polluted by
> >> whatever packages a developer has installed and makes dependency
> >> tracking a bit harder IMO.
> >
> > I agree that working in a dirty chroot is problematic. That is why there
> is
> > pbuilder and cowdancer.
> >
>
> Wouldn't it be better to use a decentral build system?
Sometimes embedded developers only have the target and their laptop. So
often having your complete toolchain on your laptop while you work on site
at a customer for example can be part of a developer's work flow. This means
a decentralized system can be a necessity. But you have to make sure you
send back your patches.
> Can a mobile
> segment distro like MeeGo be really compared with a desktop segment
> distro like e.g. embedded Ubuntu? (This is not relative to your
> message but a general rhetorical question.)
>
I don't understand what you mean by "segment" here. And I also don't
understand what you're referring to with "embedded Ubuntu."
> Well I didn't use embedded Debian as example because Emdebian mailing
> lilsts seem to be pretty dead [2].
>
Embedian is very much alive. More here:
http://www.debian.org/News/weekly/2011/12/#emdebian
> > Before it was just big companies that could create their own Linux
> distros
> > (before that everyone had their bespoke UNIX distro) nowadays
> fragmentation
> > is brought to you by every Tom, Dick and Harry with an OBS login.
> > I've been down the fragmentation road before. It always ends with
> retracing
> > your path back to the main highway.
>
> There seems to be much standardization work going on in the Yocto
> Project / OpenEmbedded Core (see [3], also Carsten already mentioned
> the Yocto Project in context of governance), anyone evaluated it?
>
Yocto is very interesting indeed, as is OpenEmbedded, though the claim is
that Yocto is "open embedded done right." But for the purposes of a distro I
don't think Yocto is the silver bullet people are looking for. Firstly, it
seems focused on Intel Atom BSPs and overall seems designed to help in board
bring-up. Yes you can create a complete distro, but like a misused OBS
repository, creating your own complete distro is not a good idea. Unless of
course yours is THE ONE.
> The Yocto Project / OpenEmbedded was discussed before in the IVI
> mailing list (see [4]), but it lacks any technical explanations and
> arguments why it cannot be used / or get adapted, also OpenEmbedded
> progressed into the new OpenEmbedded Core Project (the next release is
> just one step away).
>
https://wiki.yoctoproject.org/wiki/FAQ
OpenEmbedded is widely used in commercial embedded systems. Those systems
tend to not be open source systems and end up costing lots of money.
Regards,
Jeremiah
> On a technical point of view it is possible to port over to Yocto
> Project, and it would make sence to concentrate the development of
> embedded linux distributions to unify them into a single development
> base instead of fragmenting the communities.
>
> Well I just stated my opinion here.
>
> [1] http://lists.scratchbox.org/pipermail/scratchbox-devel/
> [2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-embedded/2011/09/threads.html
> [3] http://www.yoctoproject.org/projects/openembedded-core
> [4] http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-ivi/2011-February/000198.html
>
> > Regards,
> > Jeremiah
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MeeGo-dev mailing list
> > MeeGo-dev@meego.com
> > http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
> > http://wiki.meego.com/Mailing_list_guidelines
> >
>
> --
> Regards
> Samuel
> _______________________________________________
> MeeGo-dev mailing list
> MeeGo-dev@meego.com
> http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev
> http://wiki.meego.com/Mailing_list_guidelines
>
--
=============================================
Jeremiah C. Foster
Open Source Technologist
Pelagicore AB
Ekelundsgatan 4, 6tr, SE-411 18 Gothenburg, Sweden
Mobile: +46 (0)730 93 0506
E-Mail: jeremiah.foster@pelagicore.com
=============================================
=== NOTE ===
The information contained in this E-mail message is
intended only for use of the individual or entity
named above. If the reader of this message is not
the intended recipient, or the employee or agent
responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is
strictly prohibited.
=============
[Attachment #5 (text/html)]
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Samuel Stirtzel \
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:s.stirtzel@googlemail.com" \
target="_blank">s.stirtzel@googlemail.com</a>></span> wrote:</div><div \
class="gmail_quote">
<br></div><div class="gmail_quote">[snip]<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <br>
<a href="tel:2011%2F10%2F4" value="+462011104" target="_blank">2011/10/4</a> Jeremiah \
Foster <<a href="mailto:jeremiah.foster@pelagicore.com" \
target="_blank">jeremiah.foster@pelagicore.com</a>>:<br> <div>>> OBS is \
built with packaging in mind, so it builds packages locally and<br> >> on \
servers in a sanitized environment. Scratchbox may be polluted by<br> >> \
whatever packages a developer has installed and makes dependency<br> >> \
tracking a bit harder IMO.<br> ><br>
> I agree that working in a dirty chroot is problematic. That is why there is<br>
> pbuilder and cowdancer.<br>
><br>
<br>
</div>Wouldn't it be better to use a decentral build \
system?</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sometimes embedded developers only have the \
target and their laptop. So often having your complete toolchain on your laptop while \
you work on site at a customer for example can be part of a developer's work \
flow. This means a decentralized system can be a necessity. But you have to make sure \
you send back your patches.</div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px \
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Can a mobile<br> segment distro like MeeGo be really \
compared with a desktop segment<br> distro like e.g. embedded Ubuntu? (This is not \
relative to your<br> message but a general rhetorical \
question.)<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't understand what you mean \
by "segment" here. And I also don't understand what you're \
referring to with "embedded Ubuntu."</div> <div> </div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc \
solid;padding-left:1ex"> Well I didn't use embedded Debian as example because \
Emdebian mailing<br> lilsts seem to be pretty dead \
[2].<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Embedian is very much alive. More here: <a \
href="http://www.debian.org/News/weekly/2011/12/#emdebian">http://www.debian.org/News/weekly/2011/12/#emdebian</a></div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 \
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div> <br>
> Before it was just big companies that could create their own Linux distros<br>
> (before that everyone had their bespoke UNIX distro) nowadays fragmentation<br>
> is brought to you by every Tom, Dick and Harry with an OBS login.<br>
> I've been down the fragmentation road before. It always ends with \
retracing<br> > your path back to the main highway.<br>
<br>
</div>There seems to be much standardization work going on in the Yocto<br>
Project / OpenEmbedded Core (see [3], also Carsten already mentioned<br>
the Yocto Project in context of governance), anyone evaluated \
it?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yocto is very interesting indeed, as is \
OpenEmbedded, though the claim is that Yocto is "open embedded done right." \
But for the purposes of a distro I don't think Yocto is the silver bullet people \
are looking for. Firstly, it seems focused on Intel Atom BSPs and overall seems \
designed to help in board bring-up. Yes you can create a complete distro, but like a \
misused OBS repository, creating your own complete distro is not a good idea. Unless \
of course yours is THE ONE.</div> <div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> The Yocto \
Project / OpenEmbedded was discussed before in the IVI<br> mailing list (see [4]), \
but it lacks any technical explanations and<br> arguments why it cannot be used / or \
get adapted, also OpenEmbedded<br> progressed into the new OpenEmbedded Core Project \
(the next release is<br> just one step away).<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><a \
href="https://wiki.yoctoproject.org/wiki/FAQ">https://wiki.yoctoproject.org/wiki/FAQ</a></div><div><br></div><div>OpenEmbedded \
is widely used in commercial embedded systems. Those systems tend to not be open \
source systems and end up costing lots of money.</div> \
<div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Jeremiah</div><div> \
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc \
solid;padding-left:1ex"> On a technical point of view it is possible to port over to \
Yocto<br> Project, and it would make sence to concentrate the development of<br>
embedded linux distributions to unify them into a single development<br>
base instead of fragmenting the communities.<br>
<br>
Well I just stated my opinion here.<br>
<br>
[1] <a href="http://lists.scratchbox.org/pipermail/scratchbox-devel/" \
target="_blank">http://lists.scratchbox.org/pipermail/scratchbox-devel/</a><br> [2] \
<a href="http://lists.debian.org/debian-embedded/2011/09/threads.html" \
target="_blank">http://lists.debian.org/debian-embedded/2011/09/threads.html</a><br> \
[3] <a href="http://www.yoctoproject.org/projects/openembedded-core" \
target="_blank">http://www.yoctoproject.org/projects/openembedded-core</a><br> [4] <a \
href="http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-ivi/2011-February/000198.html" \
target="_blank">http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-ivi/2011-February/000198.html</a><br>
<div><br>
> Regards,<br>
> Jeremiah<br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> MeeGo-dev mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:MeeGo-dev@meego.com" target="_blank">MeeGo-dev@meego.com</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev" \
target="_blank">http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev</a><br> > <a \
href="http://wiki.meego.com/Mailing_list_guidelines" \
target="_blank">http://wiki.meego.com/Mailing_list_guidelines</a><br> ><br>
<br>
</div><font color="#888888">--<br>
Regards<br>
Samuel<br>
</font><div><div></div><div>_______________________________________________<br>
MeeGo-dev mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:MeeGo-dev@meego.com" target="_blank">MeeGo-dev@meego.com</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev" \
target="_blank">http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev</a><br> <a \
href="http://wiki.meego.com/Mailing_list_guidelines" \
target="_blank">http://wiki.meego.com/Mailing_list_guidelines</a><br> \
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- \
<br>=============================================<br>Jeremiah C. Foster<br>Open \
Source Technologist<br>Pelagicore AB<br>Ekelundsgatan 4, 6tr, SE-411 18 Gothenburg, \
Sweden<br>
Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B46%20%280%29730%2093%200506" value="+46730930506" \
target="_blank">+46 (0)730 93 0506</a><br>E-Mail: <a \
href="mailto:jeremiah.foster@pelagicore.com" \
target="_blank">jeremiah.foster@pelagicore.com</a><br> \
=============================================<br><br>=== NOTE ===<br>The information \
contained in this E-mail message is<br> intended only for use of the individual or \
entity<br>named above. If the reader of this message is not<br>the intended \
recipient, or the employee or agent<br>responsible to deliver it to the intended \
recipient,<br>you are hereby notified that any dissemination,<br>
<div>distribution or copying of this communication is<br>strictly \
prohibited.<br></div><div>=============</div><br>
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