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List:       markdown-discuss
Subject:    Re: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown-02.txt
From:       "Fletcher T. Penney" <fletcher () fletcherpenney ! net>
Date:       2014-09-23 19:00:10
Message-ID: CC46CCB9-70F5-4D26-BC3F-D26ECB3BAA75 () fletcherpenney ! net
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While I'm always a fan of seeing my metadata format from MMD used, I echo Sean's \
comment -- this is NOT Markdown when you do this.

Let's not go down this road.

FTP

-- 
Fletcher T. Penney
fletcher@fletcherpenney.net 

On Sep 23, 2014, at 2:35 PM, Sean Leonard <dev+ietf@seantek.com> wrote:

> 
> On Sep 23, 2014, at 8:15 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton <dennis.hamilton@acm.org> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks for this, Sean.
> > 
> > It occurs to me that the attributes of the MIME type will also work perfectly on \
> > a #! line prefixed to the file, something that might be quite handy for the many \
> > cases when a MIME type associations is not directly usable/preserved.  
> > Three examples: (1) when the MD is embedded in PGP ASCII-armor as text/plain for \
> > verification of reliable transmission/authenticity, (2) when it occurs \
> > recursively, as when embedded in comments in a program that might be part of a \
> > literate-programming construction as it does in F#, and (3) in an export format \
> > from a Wiki for preservation/transport as wikiText to another Wiki that might \
> > deal with flavors for import.
> 
> Thanks for the observation, Dennis. I agree that you could use a syntax like #! to \
> preserve this processing metadata. 
> You could also use an Internet message format file, like:
> 
> ILoveMarkdown.eml
> *****
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/markdown; flavor=Original; processor="pandoc -s -f \
>                 markdown_strict+ tex_math_double_backslash+tex_math_dollars -t \
>                 html" 
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary
> Subject: I Love Markdown
> Keywords: World, MacFarlane
> 
> Hello [Markdown World][mw]! $e=mc^2$ and \\(e=mc^2\\) are the same.
> 
> [mw]: http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/
> *****
> 
> The overall point that I want to make (to the community), however, is that once you \
> start introducing these metadata blocks, the content is no longer Markdown. \
> Specifically, it�s no longer Gruber�s Original Markdown. It�s something else. It�s \
> MultiMarkdown; it�s pandoc Markdown with a title block; it�s a tar file with \
> extended attributes; it�s a ZIP file with some kind of manifest; it�s YAML; it�s \
> HTML; it�s XML; it�s JSON�ultimately, it�s some container format. And (Gruber�s) \
> Markdown isn�t a container format. It�s about content; it was designed that way. \
> It�s a feature, and it�s a limitation. And that�s just fine. 
> The first premise of the Internet-Draft is that �text/markdown� will be sufficient \
> to identify all Markdown content (the alternatives being �don�t label it as \
> anything, keep it text/plain�, and �register hundreds upon hundreds of different \
> media types��the former is not useful and the latter is not interoperable). The \
> second premise is that we are not going to touch the syntax�any imposition of \
> structure on the content, however small, is a change to the syntax. Which is what \
> leads us to the parameters. 
> Some people have said that parameters aren�t a good place to put �these things� \
> because parameters aren�t preserved in (for example) files. But I find that \
> argument pretty thin. The label �text/markdown� is also not guaranteed to be \
> preserved when you save a file, because there is no uniform way to associate \
> Content-Types with files across file systems. But if you�re going to label Markdown \
> content as �text/markdown�, you�re already in a data storage regime that supports \
> Internet media types, so the data storage regime should be supporting parameters \
> just as well. 
> Sean
> 
> > 
> > 
> > -- Dennis E. Hamilton
> > dennis.hamilton@acm.org    +1-206-779-9430
> > https://keybase.io/orcmid  PGP F96E 89FF D456 628A
> > X.509 certs used and requested for signed e-mail
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Markdown-Discuss On Behalf Of Sean Leonard
> > Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 16:51
> > To: markdown-discuss@six.pairlist.net
> > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown-02.txt
> > 
> > Just a notification that draft-02 of the text/markdown registration has 
> > been posted. It incorporates a lot of public and private comments that 
> > were received over the last few weeks.
> > 
> > A change log is in Appendix A.
> > 
> > ********************
> > 
> > A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown-02.txt
> > has been successfully submitted by Sean Leonard and posted to the
> > IETF repository.
> > 
> > Name:		draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown
> > Revision:	02
> > Title:		The text/markdown Media Type
> > Document date:	2014-09-22
> > Group:		appsawg
> > Pages:		25
> > URL:            http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown-02.txt
> >                 
> > Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown/
> >                 
> > Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown-02
> > Diff:           http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown-02
> >  
> > Abstract:
> > This document registers the text/markdown media type for use with
> > Markdown, a family of plain text formatting syntaxes that optionally
> > can be converted to formal markup languages such as HTML.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> > 
> > The IETF Secretariat
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Markdown-Discuss mailing list
> > Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net
> > https://pairlist6.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Markdown-Discuss mailing list
> > Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net
> > https://pairlist6.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Markdown-Discuss mailing list
> Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net
> https://pairlist6.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss


[Attachment #7 (unknown)]

<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html \
charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: \
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">While I'm always a fan of seeing my \
metadata format from MMD used, I echo Sean's comment -- this is NOT Markdown when you \
do this.<div><br></div><div>Let's not go down this \
road.</div><div><br></div><div>FTP</div><div><div apple-content-edited="true"> <div \
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: \
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; \
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; \
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; \
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><br \
class="Apple-interchange-newline">--&nbsp;</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); \
font-family: Helvetica;  font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: \
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: \
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; \
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; \
">Fletcher T. Penney</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;  \
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: \
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; \
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; \
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><a \
href="mailto:fletcher@fletcherpenney.net">fletcher@fletcherpenney.net</a>&nbsp;</div> \
</div> <br><div><div>On Sep 23, 2014, at 2:35 PM, Sean Leonard &lt;<a \
href="mailto:dev+ietf@seantek.com">dev+ietf@seantek.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br \
class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><br>On Sep 23, 2014, at \
8:15 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton &lt;<a \
href="mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org">dennis.hamilton@acm.org</a>&gt; \
wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Thanks for this, Sean.<br><br>It occurs to me \
that the attributes of the MIME type will also work perfectly on a #! line prefixed \
to the file, something that might be quite handy for the many cases when a MIME type \
associations is not directly usable/preserved. <br><br>Three examples: (1) when the \
MD is embedded in PGP ASCII-armor as text/plain for verification of reliable \
transmission/authenticity, (2) when it occurs recursively, as when embedded in \
comments in a program that might be part of a literate-programming construction as it \
does in F#, and (3) in an export format from a Wiki for preservation/transport as \
wikiText to another Wiki that might deal with flavors for \
import.<br></blockquote><br>Thanks for the observation, Dennis. I agree that you \
could use a syntax like #! to preserve this processing metadata.<br><br>You could \
also use an Internet message format file, \
like:<br><br>ILoveMarkdown.eml<br>*****<br>MIME-Version: 1.0<br>Content-Type: \
text/markdown; flavor=Original; processor="pandoc -s -f markdown_strict+ \
tex_math_double_backslash+tex_math_dollars -t html" <br>Content-Transfer-Encoding: \
binary<br>Subject: I Love Markdown<br>Keywords: World, MacFarlane<br><br>Hello \
[Markdown World][mw]! $e=mc^2$ and \\(e=mc^2\\) are the same.<br><br>[mw]: <a \
href="http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/">http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/</a><br>*****<br><br>The \
overall point that I want to make (to the community), however, is that once you start \
introducing these metadata blocks, the content is no longer Markdown. Specifically, \
it�s no longer Gruber�s Original Markdown. It�s something else. It�s MultiMarkdown; \
it�s pandoc Markdown with a title block; it�s a tar file with extended attributes; \
it�s a ZIP file with some kind of manifest; it�s YAML; it�s HTML; it�s XML; it�s \
JSON�ultimately, it�s some container format. And (Gruber�s) Markdown isn�t a \
container format. It�s about content; it was designed that way. It�s a feature, and \
it�s a limitation. And that�s just fine.<br><br>The first premise of the \
Internet-Draft is that �text/markdown� will be sufficient to identify all Markdown \
content (the alternatives being �don�t label it as anything, keep it text/plain�, and \
�register hundreds upon hundreds of different media types��the former is not useful \
and the latter is not interoperable). The second premise is that we are not going to \
touch the syntax�any imposition of structure on the content, however small, is a \
change to the syntax. Which is what leads us to the parameters.<br><br>Some people \
have said that parameters aren�t a good place to put �these things� because \
parameters aren�t preserved in (for example) files. But I find that argument pretty \
thin. The label �text/markdown� is also not guaranteed to be preserved when you save \
a file, because there is no uniform way to associate Content-Types with files across \
file systems. But if you�re going to label Markdown content as �text/markdown�, \
you�re already in a data storage regime that supports Internet media types, so the \
data storage regime should be supporting parameters just as \
well.<br><br>Sean<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br><br>-- Dennis E. Hamilton<br> \
&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org">dennis.hamilton@acm.org</a> \
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+1-206-779-9430<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;<a \
href="https://keybase.io/orcmid">https://keybase.io/orcmid</a> &nbsp;PGP F96E 89FF \
D456 628A<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;X.509 certs used and requested for signed \
e-mail<br><br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Markdown-Discuss On Behalf \
Of Sean Leonard<br>Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 16:51<br>To: <a \
href="mailto:markdown-discuss@six.pairlist.net">markdown-discuss@six.pairlist.net</a><br>Subject: \
New Version Notification for draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown-02.txt<br><br>Just a \
notification that draft-02 of the text/markdown registration has <br>been posted. It \
incorporates a lot of public and private comments that <br>were received over the \
last few weeks.<br><br>A change log is in Appendix \
A.<br><br>********************<br><br>A new version of I-D, \
draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown-02.txt<br>has been successfully submitted by Sean \
Leonard and posted to the<br>IETF repository.<br><br>Name:<span \
class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">	</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" \
style="white-space:pre">	</span>draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown<br>Revision:<span \
class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">	</span>02<br>Title:<span \
class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">	</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" \
style="white-space:pre">	</span>The text/markdown Media Type<br>Document date:<span \
class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">	</span>2014-09-22<br>Group:<span \
class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">	</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" \
style="white-space:pre">	</span>appsawg<br>Pages:<span class="Apple-tab-span" \
style="white-space:pre">	</span><span class="Apple-tab-span" \
style="white-space:pre">	</span>25<br>URL: \
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a \
href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown-02.txt">htt \
p://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown-02.txt</a><br>Status: \
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a \
href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown/</a><br>Htmlized: \
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a \
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown-02">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown-02</a><br>Diff: \
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a \
href="http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown-02">http://www \
.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-appsawg-text-markdown-02</a><br><br>Abstract:<br> \
&nbsp;&nbsp;This document registers the text/markdown media type for use with<br> \
&nbsp;&nbsp;Markdown, a family of plain text formatting syntaxes that optionally<br> \
&nbsp;&nbsp;can be converted to formal markup languages such as \
HTML.<br><br><br><br><br>Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the \
time of submission<br>until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a \
href="http://tools.ietf.org">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br><br>The IETF \
Secretariat<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Markdown-Discuss \
mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net">Markdown-Discuss@si \
x.pairlist.net</a><br>https://pairlist6.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Markdown-Discuss \
mailing list<br>Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net<br>https://pairlist6.pair.net/mailma \
n/listinfo/markdown-discuss<br></blockquote><br>_______________________________________________<br>Markdown-Discuss \
mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net">Markdown-Discuss@si \
x.pairlist.net</a><br>https://pairlist6.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss<br></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>



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