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List: markdown-discuss
Subject: Re: when rational discussion was still a possibility
From: Jan_Erik_Moström <lists () mostrom ! pp ! se>
Date: 2014-09-08 12:59:37
Message-ID: CALGRW_zL9WqemvitDWtB1KZ7YLB9aNnbrNPj_uF3ufiEQPrOBw () mail ! gmail ! com
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You can do this yourself, the link where to do this is at the bottom of
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On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Joel MaHarry <joel.maharry@ulrichmaharry.com
> wrote:
> please take me off of this interminable discussion
>
> *Digital and brand communications*
>
> ..........................................................................................................................................
> Joel MaHarry | Creative Director
> joel.maharry@ulrichmaharry.com
> O (310) 504-1790 | D (310) 993.1334
> 1528 6th St., Suite 512
> Santa Monica, CA 90401
> www.ulrichmaharry.com
>
> .........................................................................................................................................
>
>
> On Sep 5, 2014, at 9:16 PM, John MacFarlane <jgm@berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
> +++ Michel Fortin [Sep 05 14 17:07 ]:
>
> From an implementer point of view, unless a detailed standard is written
> as a description of what your own parser does, you'll have to spend a lot
> of time tweaking things to match that standard. By "a lot of time" I mean
> more than what it took you to implement the parser in the first place.
> Remember, it's always getting the last 20% that takes 80% of the time. So
> you'll spend a lot of time to achieve some dubious tradeoff. Implementers
> have better things to do with their time.
>
> So my conclusion is that if you want one or another Markdown flavor to
> become the standard, you need to find a way for its implementation to be
> included everywhere. But with all the diverse language ecosystem we have,
> and with the varied needs of different communities using Markdown, that
> seems quite difficult to achieve. I'd call that impossible.
>
>
> Michel,
>
> What you did at the beginning, I gather, was to port (and then extend)
> an existing implementation, Markdown.pl. The same will be possible with
> CommonMark, which provides two implementations that use the same parsing
> algorithm, one in portable C and one in 1540 lines of javascript (with
> no library dependencies). The javascript implementation doesn't use any
> unusual javascript features and should be straightforward to
> port to other dynamic languages: perl, python, ruby, PHP. (Or you could
> just use the javascript library client-side and skip the server-side
> rendering.) Those who work with compiled languages will be able to use
> the C library directly.
>
> The parsers are both fast and accurate. The original C parser I wrote
> was about as fast as discount. An expert C coder is now working on
> otimizing it and, without changing the algorithm, has managed to make it
> about as fast as sundown, which is very fast indeed (0.01 seconds to
> parse a 1MB document, for example). When optimization is complete, it
> should be even faster. The javascript parser is also very fast (0.28
> seconds for the above-mentioned 1MB document, running in the Chrome
> browser). By comparising, Markdown.pl takes 250 seconds on the same
> input, and pandoc takes 3.19 seconds.
>
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
> Markdown-Discuss mailing list
> Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Markdown-Discuss mailing list
> Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
>
>
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<div dir="ltr">You can do this yourself, the link where to do this is at the bottom \
of each email</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep \
8, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Joel MaHarry <span dir="ltr"><<a \
href="mailto:joel.maharry@ulrichmaharry.com" \
target="_blank">joel.maharry@ulrichmaharry.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc \
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">please take me off of this \
interminable discussion<br><div> <div>
<span><img height="25" width="153" \
src="cid:9A157FBB-38C7-4E84-8BD7-37801FBF4A93@gateway.2wire.net"></span><br> <span \
style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-w \
eight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px \
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;color:rgb(66,66,66);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><i>Digital \
and brand communications</i></span><br> <div \
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Georgia;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-vari \
ant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:star \
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<font color="#424242">..........................................................................................................................................<br>
Joel MaHarry | Creative Director<br>
<a href="mailto:joel.maharry@ulrichmaharry.com" \
target="_blank">joel.maharry@ulrichmaharry.com</a> </font></div> <div \
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Georgia;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-vari \
ant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:star \
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<font color="#424242">O <a href="tel:%28310%29%20504-1790" value="+13105041790" \
target="_blank">(310) 504-1790</a> | D <a href="tel:%28310%29%20993.1334" \
value="+13109931334" target="_blank">(310) 993.1334</a><br> 1528 6th St., Suite \
512<br> Santa Monica, CA 90401<br>
<a href="http://www.ulrichmaharry.com" \
target="_blank">www.ulrichmaharry.com</a><br>
.........................................................................................................................................</font><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br><div><div>On Sep 5, 2014, at 9:16 PM, John MacFarlane <<a \
href="mailto:jgm@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">jgm@berkeley.edu</a>> \
wrote:</div><br><div>+++ Michel Fortin [Sep 05 14 17:07 ]:<br><blockquote \
type="cite">From an implementer point of view, unless a detailed standard is written \
as a description of what your own parser does, you'll have to spend a lot of time \
tweaking things to match that standard. By "a lot of time" I mean more than \
what it took you to implement the parser in the first place. Remember, it's \
always getting the last 20% that takes 80% of the time. So you'll spend a lot of \
time to achieve some dubious tradeoff. Implementers have better things to do with \
their time.<br><br>So my conclusion is that if you want one or another Markdown \
flavor to become the standard, you need to find a way for its implementation to be \
included everywhere. But with all the diverse language ecosystem we have, and with \
the varied needs of different communities using Markdown, that seems quite difficult \
to achieve. I'd call that impossible.<br></blockquote><br>Michel,<br><br>What you \
did at the beginning, I gather, was to port (and then extend)<br>an existing \
implementation, Markdown.pl. The same will be possible with<br>CommonMark, which \
provides two implementations that use the same parsing<br>algorithm, one in portable \
C and one in 1540 lines of javascript (with<br>no library dependencies). The \
javascript implementation doesn't use any<br>unusual javascript features and \
should be straightforward to<br>port to other dynamic languages: perl, python, ruby, \
PHP. (Or you could<br>just use the javascript library client-side and skip the \
server-side<br>rendering.) Those who work with compiled languages will be able to \
use<br>the C library directly.<br><br>The parsers are both fast and accurate. The \
original C parser I wrote<br>was about as fast as discount. An expert C coder is \
now working on<br>otimizing it and, without changing the algorithm, has managed to \
make it<br>about as fast as sundown, which is very fast indeed (0.01 seconds \
to<br>parse a 1MB document, for example). When optimization is complete, \
it<br>should be even faster. The javascript parser is also very fast \
(0.28<br>seconds for the above-mentioned 1MB document, running in the \
Chrome<br>browser). By comparising, Markdown.pl takes 250 seconds on the \
same<br>input, and pandoc takes 3.19 \
seconds.<br><br>John<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Markdown-Discuss \
mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net" \
target="_blank">Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net</a><br><a \
href="http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss" \
target="_blank">http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss</a><br></div></div><br></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Markdown-Discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net">Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net</a><br>
<a href="http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss" \
target="_blank">http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss</a><br> \
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
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