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List:       mageia-dev
Subject:    Re: [Mageia-dev] How will be the realese cycle?
From:       Fernando Parra <gato2707 () yahoo ! com ! mx>
Date:       2010-10-07 4:21:37
Message-ID: 20101006232137.1c8fb782.gato2707 () yahoo ! com ! mx
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On Wed, 6 Oct 2010 15:25:13 +0100
Buchan Milne <bgmilne-tobu8poG+uhSwrhanM7KvQ@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On Wednesday, 6 October 2010 03:39:04 Fernando Parra wrote:
> > On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 08:00:46 -0400
> > 
> > Sinner from the Prairy \
> > <sinnerbofh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w-XMD5yJDbdMTcBkidbGgD4Q@public.gmane.orgg> 
> wrote:
> > > Juan Luis Baptiste wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Fernando Parra
> > > > 
> > > > <gato2707-/E1597aS9LQGXtTpemXPTA-XMD5yJDbdMReXY1tMh2IBg@public.gmane.org> \
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > A different approach could be a "light rolling distro", let me
> > > > > explain. A distro with a selected number of programs updated regular
> > > > > as their new versions are available.
> > > > 
> > > > That's what backports are for, no need for a "light rolling distro",
> > > > just contribute and help doing the backports for different Mageia
> > > > versions if you really want them. That's what I do and it was one of
> > > > the main reasons to become a contrib packager :)
> > > 
> > > I totally agree with both Juan Luis Baptiste and Buchan Milne.
> > > 
> > > No rolling release!
> > > 
> > > This is just a fancy word.
> > > 
> > > But then, the "goals" of "rolling release" are already accomplished with
> > > the current Mandriva system, and I hope Mageia will keep this
> > > functionality:
> > > 
> > > backports
> > > 
> > > Probably, what needs to happen is to publicize more backports for
> > > advanced/cutting edge/rolling users instead of changing something that is
> > > not broken.
> > > 
> > > Salut,
> > > Sinner
> > > 
> > > That's maybe a solution, backports, but let me be less ambiguous about a
> > > different model.
> > 
> > When a expert group are working in a re-engineering process at any company,
> > the first wall that they need to broke is: "Oh, but, this is the way in we
> > work since... Ħand it's works fine for us!
> 
> Sometimes the consultants aren't aware of all the attempts that were made to 
> fix the issue in the past, and the reasons for their failure, and end up 
> recommending solutions that are doomed to fail unless other conditions change.

First of all an apology, this was originally written in Spanish and translated by \
Google.

Must first be clear that Mageia is in fact a process of re - engineering Mandriva. \
All of us here have perfectly clear that things are not working as they should in \
Mandriva, and if we are consistent we should be clear that there is not only a matter \
of management.

Moreover, if we stick to the numbers, something is not working at all well with all \
Linux distributions, while despite all the virtues and benefits of free software, the \
number of users is still very small . For example: \
http://www.dudalibre.com/gnulinuxcounter

> 
> > In the same way the backport method (called different as different distros
> > are in this world) is the same since... Ħand it works fine for us!
> 
> You didn't reply to my response to your list of favourite applications, which 
> were, except for Netbeans which is out-of-date in cooker, all provided in 
> backports.
> 
> So, why did you not use the packages from backports? Was it because the 
> concept is flawed? Or, is it because backports aren't advertised well enough to 
> users?
> 

Actually my list almost does not matter, in fact it does not matter at all, because I \
understand myself as an atypical user. Although I am a teacher, I have a degree in \
electronics engineering and other in engineering software. And while my particular \
list does not matter, my experience allows me to see quite clearly both sides of the \
coin (the end user and developer).

With the clear intention of showing the point of view of end users, the \
inexperienced, was how I expressed myself here. As developers continually forget that \
is what the user wants and focus on what we need.

I find it obvious that the purpose of a distribution is not to develop everyday \
applications, however its purpose is to provide the framework on which you can run \
the latter.


> Let's first understand the problem completely before re-engineering to fix a 
> problem that doesn't exist ...
> 
> > Mageia are trying to be different than other distros (as I understand).
> > Unfortunately I only have read a lot of answers told me why no (thanks to
> > all of you), but any of them made any improvement to my idea, as well
> > there aren't any alternative way.
> 
> First you need to articulate why the current Mandriva method is not working 
> for you.
> 
> > When Mandriva was madded first time, its goal was to be a very user
> > friendly distro; a Linux for non technical people. But at now there are a
> > new world with a lot of distros with the same goal. For this reason we
> > must do our new way.
> > 
> > In example:
> > 
> > For the same reasons that I have read here, a lot of users never turn on a
> > backport repository, with hundreds of packages inside it, but maybe if
> > there is another repository called "top 10" or something like that
> > (remember I proposed run a poll), these hypothetical users may turn on
> > that repository.
> 
> This is quite difficult, as different users have different perceptions of what 
> their top 10 packages are. I don't use netbeans or gambas2 or lazarus or 
> openshot, and hardly ever use wine.
> 
> For me, the important packages at the moment are:
> -xbmc (backported)
> -lensfun (backported, by me)
> -digikam (backported, by me)
> -openldap (backported, usually by me)
> -pioneers (backported)
> -quassel (backported)
> -qtcreator (not backported, but I am using NokiaQtSDK at present)
> 

What I do not like Mandriva model (and indeed of any distribution) is that although \
free software is developed very quickly, once you have installed a distribution, you \
must wait a cycle to gain access to new versions (not just security patches) and also \
must pass through the traumatic transition from installing any operating system. \
Beware! Not for me, and certainly not for you, my only problem with that is time.

Let me explain with a practical example. A user needs with urgency (without judging \
their motives) the new version of aMSN to use his video camera, with the current \
model need to wait for the new operating system version and then install it \
completely. And to make matters worse this will only work until MS decides to change \
the protocol again (as I read he has done countless times).

Assume that a user, who never pass from being a mere user of basic services will even \
try to understand that is the backports repository or cocker or anything similar, is \
at best naive.

I do work continuously with such people, and I have made clear they want solutions as \
simple as giving a couple of clicks to solve this type of situation.

I do not use any IM service, personally I find abhorrent subject, like many other \
modern gadgets, but not going to close my eyes to the reality of their continued use.

Without being interpreted as an offence, for the same reasons, I think your own list \
is not important. The only list that should matter is that determined by a reliable \
and time hopefully. That list that reflects what the needs of end users.

> > Are there countries with a expensive rates or a slow dial-up connections?
> 
> There are many countries where there is insufficient fixed-line infrastructure 
> for low-cost internet access. In South Africa, although I worked for a Telco, 
> I could never get DSL (due to cable theft). Mobile broadband was the only 
> option, starting at R2/MB (approx US$0.30/MB), or maybe R0.20/MB (approx 
> US$0.03/MB on 2GB/month package).
> 
> ADSL penetration is about 1-2%, cellphone penetration is over 80%, mobile 
> broadband penetration is about 10%.
> 
> Even on ADSL, many subscribers are on a 2GB (R200, or approx $70 per month) or 
> 3GB/month package (other packages are available, and topup is possible).
> 
> (However, I run a Mandriva mirror which is available after users are capped, 
> but running Mandriva updates could prevent you from accessing Google, 
> Facebook, using skype etc.)
> 
> You can find some (outdated, but still useful) statistics on internet access 
> and pricing here:
> 
> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/int_pri_bas_for_int_us_per_mon-price-basket-
> us-per-month
> 

If we actually stopped to see the problem of Internet access charges, never get to do \
anything for fear that the final product will not reach users. If this really were a \
factor, the distributions would never have grown from a few floppy disks, many \
floppies to a CD, 2 CD, 3 CD and now DVD (Tomorrow 2 DV and so on?).

> 
> > Surely they are more comfortable with Mageia knowing that they don't need
> > to download a 700 MB each six months (surely more if they need to install
> > more applications) cause they only need the next version of...
> 
> I download once, and update 5 machines, and often provide media to other users 
> in SA.
> 
> > No other distro has an feature like this, it probably become a better offer
> > in a very fragmented and competitive world of GNU / Linux distros.
> 
> Hm, you need to explain this "feature" in much more detail, and indicate all 
> the pros/cons over the Mandriva style.
> 
> > I don't want to create any more controversial. I only need one thing of
> > you: Before answer me why not. Made a question to your self: What if...?
> 
> What if more people actually contributed ...

Again, without trying to offend: at this stage of Mageia try to think collectively, \
at least in my humble opinion this is to contribute, do not you think so?

> 
> /me gets back to working on some Mageia infrastructure.
> 
> Regards,
> Buchan
> 
> Maintainer of these packages:
> http://maint.mandriva.com/listpkgs.php?owner=14
> 

Regards from Mexico
-- 
Fernando Parra <gato2707@yahoo.com.mx>


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