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List: log4cxx-dev
Subject: Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@
From: Matt Sicker <boards () gmail ! com>
Date: 2017-03-28 19:49:27
Message-ID: CACmp6konpb0P72=0JLPTj=Fuq0K5CSGcc=+pHz30Qq28EkK_6g () mail ! gmail ! com
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We should start a new vote for issues@. We've already voted to merge dev@
and keep the user lists as is.
On 28 March 2017 at 14:18, Paul Benedict <pbenedict@apache.org> wrote:
> Yes, I think combining the "user@" and "dev@" variants into two are
> appropriate. +1 (non-binding) for me.
>
> Furthermore --- and this has always been a scratch of mine to itch (and I
> raise this about once a year!) -- I would like a dedicated "issues@"
> mailing list like other Apache projects. The traditional answer back to me
> is "I setup filters for this so you can too" but I would just prefer the
> separation. The separation also makes it easier to browse the "dev@"
> archives. So for 2017, what do you guys say? Can we finally get that going
> this time around?
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Matt,
> >
> > Any update on this?
> >
> > Ralph
> >
> > On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Matt!
> >
> > Ralph
> >
> > On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list
> > with bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
> >
> > On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
> > >
> > > Ralph
> > >
> > > On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I got this response from Gavin:
> > >
> > > Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
> > >
> > > Merging the lists - no problem
> > > Merging all the subscribers - no problem
> > > Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list
> > > - no problem
> > >
> > > People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
> > > they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
> > > hint.
> > >
> > > If you are :-
> > >
> > > a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
> > > know this is happening and the date then let me know.
> > > b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate
> > > further.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
> > > > follow up with infra.
> > > >
> > > > On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Is there any follow-up to this?
> > > > >
> > > > > Ralph
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. That seems fine to me.
> > > > > 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender
> > > > > but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
> > > > > [list] to the start of the subject line.
> > > > > 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ralph
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Some things:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Archives won't be merged.
> > > > > 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
> > > > > addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
> > > > > to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
> > > > > 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
> > > > > subscribed to the combined list.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform
> > > > > senders to use the new list?
> > > > >
> > > > > On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
> > > > > > org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ralph
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
> > > > > > > discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep \
> > > > > > > the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Total agreement.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
> > > > > > > > > dropped the other lists. This is a horrible way to have \
> > > > > > > > > discussions that affect all the sub projects.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ralph
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the
> > > > > > > > > subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that \
> > > > > > > > > would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java \
> > > > > > > > > and C++ in various projects.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
> > > > > > > > > C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar \
> > > > > > > > > architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. \
> > > > > > > > > Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine
> > > > > > > > > .com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
> > > > > > > > > > languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of \
> > > > > > > > > > the subprojects.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
> > > > > > > > > > dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
> > > > > > > > > > > projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with \
> > > > > > > > > > > the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should \
> > > > > > > > > > > aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache \
> > > > > > > > > > > Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache \
> > > > > > > > > > > Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all \
> > > > > > > > > > > subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to \
> > > > > > > > > > > merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same \
> > > > > > > > > > > use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those \
> > > > > > > > > > > mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a \
> > > > > > > > > > > larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user \
> > > > > > > > > > > mailing lists I follow:
> > > > > > > > > > > log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
> > > > > > > > > > > that about two weeks ago
> > > > > > > > > > > log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
> > > > > > > > > > > before that a month ago
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > > > > > > > On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
> > > > > > > > > > > might be of general interest to all logging projects. \
> > > > > > > > > > > Generally, these are just release announcements.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Ralph
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it
> > > > > > > > > > > doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is \
> > > > > > > > > > > whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a \
> > > > > > > > > > > common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't \
> > > > > > > > > > > sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.
> > > > > > > > > > > com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC \
> > > > > > > > > > > > votes are "binding". I don't think that changes much however.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user's
> > > > > > > > > > > > lists separate isn't likely to be an issue as most of the \
> > > > > > > > > > > > things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list \
> > > > > > > > > > > > anyway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ralph
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner \
> > > > > > > > > > > > <dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing
> > > > > > > > > > > > lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore \
> > > > > > > > > > > > I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> \
> > > > > > > > > > > > dev@logging.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > Matt Sicker: +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ralph Goers: +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > Stefan Bodewig: +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sven Rautenverg: -1
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thorsten Schöning: -0
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ivan Habunek: -0
> > > > > > > > > > > > Dominik Psenner: +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > Remko Popma: +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > Mikael Ståldal: +0
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Totals so far:
> > > > > > > > > > > > +1: 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > +0: 1
> > > > > > > > > > > > -0: 2
> > > > > > > > > > > > -1: 1
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, \
> > > > > > > > > > > > general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > Matt Sicker: -1
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ralph Goers: +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > Stefan Bodewig: -1
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sven Rautenverg: -1
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thorsten Schöning: -0
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ivan Habunek: -0
> > > > > > > > > > > > Dominik Psenner: +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > Remko Popma: +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > Mikael Ståldal: -1
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Totals so far:
> > > > > > > > > > > > +1: 3
> > > > > > > > > > > > +0: 0
> > > > > > > > > > > > -0: 2
> > > > > > > > > > > > -1: 4
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
> > > > > > > > > > > > subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
> > > > > > > > > > > > mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> > > > > > > > > > > > dev@logging.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
> > > > > > > > > > > > general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
> > > > > > > > > > > > aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any \
> > > > > > > > > > > > future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag \
> > > > > > > > > > > > can be added such as:
> > > > > > > > > > > > [java]
> > > > > > > > > > > > [net]
> > > > > > > > > > > > [cxx]
> > > > > > > > > > > > [php]
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it
> > > > > > > > > > > > should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate \
> > > > > > > > > > > > audience.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Voting:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> > > > > > > > > > > > +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> > > > > > > > > > > > -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and \
> > > > > > > > > > > > whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > [image: MagineTV]
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > *Mikael Ståldal*
> > > > > > > > > > Senior software developer
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > *Magine TV*
> > > > > > > > > > mikael.staldal@magine.com
> > > > > > > > > > Grev Turegatan 3 | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden | www.magine.com
> > > > > > > > > > <http://www.magine.com/>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in
> > > > > > > > > > this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this \
> > > > > > > > > > message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a \
> > > > > > > > > > person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In \
> > > > > > > > > > such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the \
> > > > > > > > > > sender by reply email.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
--
Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
[Attachment #3 (text/html)]
<div dir="ltr">We should start a new vote for issues@. We've already voted to \
merge dev@ and keep the user lists as is.</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div \
class="gmail_quote">On 28 March 2017 at 14:18, Paul Benedict <span dir="ltr"><<a \
href="mailto:pbenedict@apache.org" \
target="_blank">pbenedict@apache.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc \
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>Yes, I think combining the \
"user@" and "dev@" variants into two are appropriate. +1 \
(non-binding) for me.<br><br></div>Furthermore --- and this has always been a scratch \
of mine to itch (and I raise this about once a year!) -- I would like a dedicated \
"issues@" mailing list like other Apache projects. The traditional answer \
back to me is "I setup filters for this so you can too" but I would just \
prefer the separation. The separation also makes it easier to browse the \
"dev@" archives. So for 2017, what do you guys say? Can we finally get that \
going this time around?<br><br></div>Cheers,<br></div>Paul<br><div><div><div \
class="gmail_extra"><div><div class="h5"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 27, \
2017 at 8:21 PM, Ralph Goers <span dir="ltr"><<a \
href="mailto:ralph.goers@dslextreme.com" \
target="_blank">ralph.goers@dslextreme.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc \
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div \
style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>Matt,</div><div><br></div><div>Any update on \
this?</div><div><br></div><div>Ralph</div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On \
Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <<a \
href="mailto:ralph.goers@dslextreme.com" \
target="_blank">ralph.goers@dslextreme.com</a>> wrote:</div><br \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div \
style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>Thanks \
Matt!</div><div><br></div><div>Ralph</div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On \
Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <<a href="mailto:boards@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">boards@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div \
dir="ltr">No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list \
with bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.</div><div \
class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph \
Goers <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ralph.goers@dslextreme.com" \
target="_blank">ralph.goers@dslextreme.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc \
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>OK. I guess I am fine \
with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?</div><span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801HOEnZb"><font \
color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>Ralph</div></font></span><div><div \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801h5"><br><div><blockquote \
type="cite"><div>On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <<a \
href="mailto:boards@gmail.com" target="_blank">boards@gmail.com</a>> \
wrote:</div><br class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div \
dir="ltr">I got this response from Gavin:<div><br></div><div><span \
style="font-size:12.8px">Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on \
that last request.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br \
style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Merging the lists - no \
problem</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Merging all \
the subscribers - no problem</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span \
style="font-size:12.8px">Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged \
target list - no problem</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br \
style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">People will know in advance \
this merger is going to take place, and if they forget I think it'll take only \
one or two bounce messages to get the hint.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br \
style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">If you are :-</span><br \
style="font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span \
style="font-size:12.8px">a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all \
lists users know this is happening and the date then let me know.</span><br \
style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">b) Not Happy with that - ping \
this ticket again and we'll escalate further.</span><br \
style="font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span \
style="font-size:12.8px">Thanks</span><br></div></div><div \
class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt \
Sicker <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:boards@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">boards@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc \
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on \
how to handle that. Let me follow up with infra.</div><div \
class="gmail_extra"><div><div \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997h5"><br><div \
class="gmail_quote">On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <span dir="ltr"><<a \
href="mailto:ralph.goers@dslextreme.com" \
target="_blank">ralph.goers@dslextreme.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc \
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>Is there any follow-up \
to this? </div><span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_6211818563159715309HOEnZb"><font \
color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>Ralph</div></font></span><div><div \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_6211818563159715309h5"><br><div><blockquote \
type="cite"><div>On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <<a \
href="mailto:ralph.goers@dslextreme.com" \
target="_blank">ralph.goers@dslextreme.com</a>> wrote:</div><br \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_6211818563159715309m_6771486501010604734Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div \
style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>1. That seems fine to me.</div><div>2. Is it \
possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the \
email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the \
subject line.</div><div>3. This is the main thing that needs to \
happen.</div><div><br></div><div>Ralph</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div><blockquote \
type="cite"><div>On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <<a \
href="mailto:boards@gmail.com" target="_blank">boards@gmail.com</a>> \
wrote:</div><br class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492 \
997m_6211818563159715309m_6771486501010604734Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div \
dir="ltr">Some things:<div><br></div><div>1. Archives won't be \
merged.</div><div>2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email \
addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, \
though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.</div><div>3. Current \
subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined \
list.</div><div><br></div><div>So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back \
and inform senders to use the new list?</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div \
class="gmail_quote">On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <span dir="ltr"><<a \
href="mailto:boards@gmail.com" target="_blank">boards@gmail.com</a>></span> \
wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px \
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Created a request, not sure if it's \
public: <a href="https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651" \
target="_blank">https://issues.apache.<wbr>org/jira/servicedesk/customer/<wbr>portal/1/INFRA-13651</a></div><div \
class="gmail_extra"><div><div \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_6211818563159715309m_6771486501010604734h5"><br><div \
class="gmail_quote">On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <span dir="ltr"><<a \
href="mailto:ralph.goers@dslextreme.com" \
target="_blank">ralph.goers@dslextreme.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc \
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div \
style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>Yes,</div><div><br></div><div>If you could send the \
request to infra I would appreciate it.</div><span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_6211818563159715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539HOEnZb"><font \
color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>Ralph</div></font></span><div><div \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_6211818563159715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539h5"><br><div><blockquote \
type="cite"><div>On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <<a \
href="mailto:boards@gmail.com" target="_blank">boards@gmail.com</a>> \
wrote:</div><br class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492 \
997m_6211818563159715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div \
dir="ltr">The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and \
discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user \
lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?</div><div \
class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik \
Psenner <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dpsenner@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">dpsenner@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc \
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Total agreement.</div><div \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
59715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603HOEnZb"><div \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_6211818563159715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603h5"><div \
class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., \
"Ralph Goers" <<a href="mailto:ralph.goers@dslextreme.com" \
target="_blank">ralph.goers@dslextreme.com</a>> wrote:<br \
type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 \
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div \
style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>This is exactly why we need one dev list. These \
last two responses dropped the other lists. This is a horrible way to have \
discussions that affect all the sub \
projects.</div><div><br></div><div>Ralph</div><div><br></div><br><div><blockquote \
type="cite"><div>On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <<a \
href="mailto:boards@gmail.com" target="_blank">boards@gmail.com</a>> \
wrote:</div><br class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492 \
997m_6211818563159715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div \
dir="ltr" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-c \
aps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">I'd \
love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that \
as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where \
they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.<div><br></div><div>While the \
programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really \
compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could \
help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be \
great.</div></div><div class="gmail_extra" \
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal \
;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br><div \
class="gmail_quote">On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal<span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
59715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817Apple-converted-space"> \
</span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mikael.staldal@magine.com" \
target="_blank">mikael.staldal@magine<wbr>.com</a>></span><span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
59715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817Apple-converted-space"> \
</span>wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div \
dir="ltr">I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we \
support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.</div><div \
class="gmail_extra"><div><div \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
59715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817h5"><br><div \
class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner<span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
59715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817Apple-converted-space"> \
</span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dpsenner@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">dpsenner@gmail.com</a>></span><span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
59715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817Apple-converted-space"> \
</span>w<wbr>rote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div \
bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><p>We had once the discussion that we wanted all \
Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same \
or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging \
specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of \
Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk \
more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I \
don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. \
Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just \
quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I \
follow:<br></p><p>log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before \
that about two weeks ago<br>log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the \
topic before that a month ago<br></p><p>Cheers<br></p><div><div \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
59715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817m_1205933059939397078h5"><div \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
59715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272 \
423231m_3942731476876971817m_1205933059939397078m_-847730234140943188moz-cite-prefix">On \
2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>We use \
general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest \
to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release \
Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: -1
Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4
</pre>Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.<br><br><div \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
59715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272 \
423231m_3942731476876971817m_1205933059939397078m_-847730234140943188m_-3547174407184483746moz-cite-prefix">On \
2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div \
dir="ltr">I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half \
of them less than five minutes ago.<div><br></div><div>This is a vote to merge the \
various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as \
follows:</div><div><br></div><div>log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, \
log4cxx-dev@ -><span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
59715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817Apple-converted-space"> \
</span><a href="mailto:dev@logging.apache.org" \
target="_blank">dev@logging.apache.org</a></div><div>log4j-user@, log4php-user@, \
log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -><span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
59715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817Apple-converted-space"> \
</span><a href="mailto:user@logging.apache.org" \
target="_blank">user@logging.apache.org</a></div><div><br></div><div>commits@ and \
private@ remain the same as before.</div><div><br></div><div>The proposal would also \
suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to \
lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added \
such as:</div><div><br></div><div>[java]</div><div>[net]</div><div>[cxx]</div><div>[php]</div><div><br></div><div>Though \
I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the \
attention of the appropriate \
audience.</div><div><br></div><div>Voting:</div><div><br></div><div>+1: Yes, combine \
the mailing lists!</div><div>+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.</div><div>-0: \
Don't like it, but not vetoing it.</div><div>-1: No, don't do that! I have a \
better idea!</div><div><br></div><div>This vote follows the same "lazy \
consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and \
whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.<br \
clear="all"><div><br></div>--<span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
59715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817Apple-converted-space"> \
</span><br><div class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492 \
997m_6211818563159715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_91123052436934760 \
3m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817m_1205933059939397078m_-847730234140943188m_-3547174407184483746gmail_signature">Matt \
Sicker <<a href="mailto:boards@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">boards@gmail.com</a>></div></div></div></blockquote><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br \
clear="all"><div><br></div>--<span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
59715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817Apple-converted-space"> \
</span><br><div class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492 \
997m_6211818563159715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_91123052436934760 \
3m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817m_1205933059939397078m_-847730234140943188gmail_signature" \
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Matt Sicker <<a href="mailto:boards@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">boards@gmail.com</a>></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></blockquote><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br \
clear="all"><div><br></div></div></div><span>--<span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
59715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817Apple-converted-space"> \
</span><br><div class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492 \
997m_6211818563159715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817m_1205933059939397078gmail_signature" \
data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div \
dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div \
style="font-family:Helvetica,Helvetica;font-size:11px;margin:0px;color:rgb(109,109,109)"><div \
style="margin:0px;font-size:12px"><img alt="MagineTV" height="32" width="32"><span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
59715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817Apple-converted-space"> \
</span><br><br></div><div \
style="margin:0px;font-size:12px;color:rgb(41,41,41);min-height:15px"><b>Mikael \
Ståldal</b><div style="margin:0px;font-size:11px;color:rgb(109,109,109)">Senior \
software developer<span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
59715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817Apple-converted-space"> \
</span><br><br></div><div style="margin:0px;font-size:11px"><b>Magine \
TV</b></div><div style="margin:0px;font-size:11px;color:rgb(109,109,109)"><a \
href="mailto:mikael.staldal@magine.com" target="_blank">mikael.staldal@magine.com</a> \
</div><div style="margin:0px;font-size:11px;color:rgb(109,109,109)"><span \
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Grev Turegatan 3 | 114 46 Stockholm, \
Sweden</span> <span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
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</span>|<span class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-206927227013549299 \
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</span><span style="color:rgb(65,65,65)"> <span \
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</span><a href="http://www.magine.com/" target="_blank"><span \
style="color:rgb(0,106,227)">www.magine.com</span><span \
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</span></a></span><br><br></div><div \
style="margin:0px;font-size:10px;color:rgb(168,168,168)">Privileged and/or \
Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the \
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</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></span></div></blockquote></div><br><br \
clear="all"><div><br></div>--<span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
59715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817Apple-converted-space"> \
</span><br><div class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492 \
997m_6211818563159715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272423231m_3942731476876971817gmail_signature" \
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Matt Sicker <<a href="mailto:boards@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">boards@gmail.com</a>></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_62118185631 \
59715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539m_911230524369347603gmail_signature" \
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Matt Sicker <<a href="mailto:boards@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">boards@gmail.com</a>></div> </div>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br \
clear="all"><div><br></div></div></div><span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_6211818563159715309m_6771486501010604734HOEnZb"><font \
color="#888888">-- <br><div \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_6211818563159715309m_6771486501010604734m_-1881564693080257539gmail_signature" \
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Matt Sicker <<a href="mailto:boards@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">boards@gmail.com</a>></div> </font></span></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_6211818563159715309m_6771486501010604734gmail_signature" \
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Matt Sicker <<a href="mailto:boards@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">boards@gmail.com</a>></div> </div>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br \
clear="all"><div><br></div></div></div><span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997HOEnZb"><font \
color="#888888">-- <br><div \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997m_6211818563159715309gmail_signature" \
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Matt Sicker <<a href="mailto:boards@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">boards@gmail.com</a>></div> </font></span></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div><br></div>-- <br><div \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801m_-2069272270135492997gmail_signature" \
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Matt Sicker <<a href="mailto:boards@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">boards@gmail.com</a>></div> </font></span></div><span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> \
</font></span></div></blockquote></div><span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272HOEnZb"><font \
color="#888888"><br></font></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br><br \
clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div \
class="m_-7423221697020323272m_-4789342889915508801gmail_signature" \
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Matt Sicker <<a href="mailto:boards@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">boards@gmail.com</a>></div> </font></span></div><span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> \
</font></span></div></blockquote></div><span \
class="m_-7423221697020323272HOEnZb"><font \
color="#888888"><br></font></span></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div><br><br \
clear="all"><br></div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">-- <br><div \
class="m_-7423221697020323272gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div \
dir="ltr"><div>Cheers,<br></div>Paul<br></div></div> \
</font></span></div></div></div></div> </blockquote></div><br><br \
clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" \
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Matt Sicker <<a href="mailto:boards@gmail.com" \
target="_blank">boards@gmail.com</a>></div> </div>
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