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List:       kwin
Subject:    [Bug 153799] keyboard shortcuts missing when virtual desktops exeed 4
From:       kavol <kavol () seznam ! cz>
Date:       2009-08-10 22:36:40
Message-ID: 20090810223640.B11E417E8B () immanuel ! kde ! org
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https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153799





--- Comment #17 from kavol <kavol seznam cz>  2009-08-11 00:36:36 ---
(In reply to comment #16)
> No its not, because then app developers have to invent rather useless
> shortcuts like Ctrl+Shift+Meta+Alt+F to do something because they run out of
> shortcuts.

oh well, how could I have existed so many years using KDE 3, that assigned
Ctrl+F1..F10, without touching Ctrl+Shift+Meta+Alt together?

and what about the poor text-mode applications that have to live with the fact
that kernel (or what?) uses Alt+F8 to switch to terminal 8 while most of the
distros have only 6 terminals active by default?

> Not to mention that some shortcuts are well-established among certain kind of
> applications (for example Fx-shortcuts are wide-spread among IDE's to drive
> the debugger).

could you please elaborate on this, i.e. name at least a few
actions+applications for each Ctrl+F5 to Ctrl+F12 shortcut, and the numbers of
users of these?

> > consider the abovementioned Firefox and Ctrl+F5 to reload -
> > as far as I remember, F5 or Ctrl+R was used for reload, so using Ctrl+F5
> > a) breaks a longstanding "standard"
> 
> There's no standard on shortcuts.

well, that is why I consistently use quotation marks - I know there is no
standard (to be precise I do not know about existence of such a standard)

pointing that out and repeating that three times just makes you look like not
having any real arguments, if you have to focus on what you consider
inappropriate word usage instead of the point behind that

> However all browsers I regurlarly use have Ctrl+<reload-shortcut> bound to
> reload without cache (i.e. deleting their cache for this page), which is very
> useful.

oh well, I see that I have to improve my education, because I thought that the
cache of the page is invalidated on each reload request, otherwise I do not see
any point in doing reload which just re-reads data from the local memory/disk

but that just strenghtens my belief that it is a good idea to discourage
application authors from overloading system shortcuts, because ...

> And the default shortcut for reloading in
> KDE is F5 since a long time, hence Ctrl+F5 for reloading with clean cache.

... default shortcut to switch to desktop 5 is Ctrl+F5 since much longer time,
if I get it correct, long before anything like "Web Browser" even existed

> > b) creates a conflict for people who would like to use more desktops and
> > use the Ctrl+Fn scheme, which is even older "standard"
> 
> Again, there's no standard on shortcuts.

see above ...

> KDE3 had this, but that was a mistake

no, it was a useful feature

> (IMHO) and we should do better in KDE4.

read: we should cripple KDE4 even more, because after the disaster with 4.0,
users slowly find KDE 4.2-4.3 usable, so it is time to break more features that
were OK in KDE 3 ;-)

> > so, preassigning Ctrl+F5 may prevent such troubles
> 
> No it does not, it only takes away a useful and "short" shortcut from any
> user that doesn't use virtual desktops or uses only 4 of them.

in turn, not reserving that shortcut 'only takes away useful and "short"
shortcut from any user that uses more than 4 virtual desktops'

> And I'm relatively sure that quite a bit of KDE's userbase doesn't even know
> about virtual desktops.

then default to one and disabling all the switching shortcuts - until you do
that, it is only hypocrisy to argue that people do not use the feature while
leaving it enabled by default (and, from my experience, not a good statistical
data, but still interesting, virtually no one using more than one desktop
sticks with just four of them)

oh, wait, wasn't that GNOME which started cuting features not to let the user
to be confused by them? :)

> > - I believe that the global
> > shortcuts may be overruled (no? - is a bug reported for it?) so it won't affect
> 
> No, because that would be completely beside the use-case of global shortcuts.
> The idea is that they're always overriding whatever the application has
> configured.

that is desinterpretation, I've meant the default changed, not that the
application specific should take precedence to the global

...
> See above, there exists no standard on shortcuts, only "what other apps do".

again ...

...
> I don't see what this has to do with the wish, having Ctrl+F1-F4 assigned to
> switch between the first 4 desktops is consistent on all
> default-installations of KDE.

have you ever noticed that there exist more environments than just KDE?

- hell, have you noticed there exist more KDE versions than just KDE4, so if
KDE3 has it differently, you can't even say that it is consisten on "all KDE"?

> As no default installation of KDE has more than 4 virtual desktops,
> there's no point in having more default-setup shortcuts as they're completely
> useless.

there is no point only if you just choose to ignore that there is a point ...
no matter what I have said before, the mere existence of this report and it
duplicates proves that there is a point, at least for some of the users (some
that are not so lazy to report/vote in KDE bugzilla)

> > (In reply to comment #13)
...
> > no, it does not resolve the reasons why I filed bug 203320 that was marked
> > duplicate of this
> 
> It actually does help, because it makes it reminds you that you might need to
> setup a shortcut for the new desktop.

as above, please try to follow the point ... which is, in this case, that the
system does not behave as expected, as used to in previous version (while
regressions are usually considered a bad thing), not that I need a guide to
setup my keyboard (the way I have written it is just to illustrate how much do
I consider all the desktop switching shortcuts natural ...)

> I also think it would be even nicer if a
> new shortcut is automatically added if you add more desktops.

this sounds like an agreeable compromise

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