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List:       koffice-devel
Subject:    Re: Kimageshop GUI.
From:       John Califf <jcaliff () compuzone ! net>
Date:       2000-10-20 4:21:02
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Thomas Zander wrote:
> 
> Hi, I just looked at kimageshop (apply patch below to get it to work).
> 
> Kimageshop uses a couple of concepts that are not really up-to-date anymore.
> from a GUI point of view, anyhow.
> 
> I natuarelly skipped over stuff that is broken, but the GUI has some basic
> problems.
> 
> In KDE (and koffice) we work with SDI (take a look at the styleguide)
> http://developer.kde.org/documentation/standards/kde/style/basics/index.html
> I saw a couple of mdi style windows.
> 
> - file->new should open a new window (a new view)
> - The extra windoes (toolbar buttons) Gradients and Gradient editor should
>   either be real windows or toolbars (the latter IMO).
> - KImageShop can open multiple images if I understand the tab at the bottom
>   correctly. I think this is very wrong from a UI POV, where we say that
>   every image is a document, and thus should have its own window.
> - The layers, color chooser etc. should IMO be toolbars.
>   When the toolbars can be dragged off again (I hope they wil!) we got the
>   opportunity to get "extra windows" just like Photoshop and other professional
>   programs.
> - it should check if the image can be closed without saving. (and save otherwise)
> 
> As to what it needs:
> 1st: image size, layers, selection for different color spaces (Ok, rgb and gray)
> 2nd: the layers should be the other way around. Just copy a well know programs
>      behavior. (the background layer should be at the bottom)
> 3th: tools like
>    - hand (to move the viewport over the canvas)
>    - airbrush
>    - gradients
>    - cursors should reflect the brushes.
> 
> patch to be able to run kimageshop:
> 
> zander@namlook:~/sources/kde/koffice/kimageshop > cvs diff kimageshop.desktop
> Index: kimageshop.desktop
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /home/kde/koffice/kimageshop/kimageshop.desktop,v
> retrieving revision 1.127
> diff -u -3 -p -d -b -r1.127 kimageshop.desktop
> --- kimageshop.desktop  2000/10/15 05:20:57     1.127
> +++ kimageshop.desktop  2000/10/15 11:15:11
> @@ -5,7 +5,7 @@ Name[is]=Myndvinnsla
>  Name[pt_BR]=Manipulador de Imagens
>  Exec=kimageshop
>  MapNotify=true
> -X-KDE-Library=libkimageshoppart
> +X-KDE-Library=libkimageshop
>  X-KDE-LibraryMajor=1
>  X-KDE-LibraryMinor=0
> 
> --

I have changed the name of the lib in the desktop file to match the
actual name of the lib, and committed to cvs - should load now.  This
was changed on my box but the latest cvs update wiped it out so it
didn't get committed.  Sorry.

About the gui changes, this is something to discuss.  First, I *really*
like the gui of kimageshop pretty much as it is, after using Gimp and
other programs that have lots of confusing, tiny windows, toolbars and
dialogs all over the desktop just to work on an single image, much less
multiple images.

Krayon currently uses two different kind of multiple view interfaces -
one for the image itself, allowing editing of multiple images in one
frame and switching with the tabs, and one for the side panel which
holds brushes, layer info, etc. 

When working with images, any image can be loaded into a layer or brush,
and
likewise any layer or image should be saveable as a brush or as another
image, allowing great flexibility. The user should be able to treat any
layer as a separate image and often has the need to work on multiple
images or layers simultaneously and coherently.  The current Kimageshop
gui accomodates this vital need in a flexible way, without forcing the
artist to open yet another window to edit each layer or image he or she
may want to add to the current image or to compare with the current
image.  

If there is some reason why KOffice common code wont't work with
multiple views of images or layers in one frame (I can't see any), then
I can limit it to one per frame.  If what is there now can work with
common code I'd much prefer not to change it without much discussion
with artists about their needs.  One accomodation is to treat "extra"
images not as documents but more like layers or brushes, thereby
allowing only one document (image) per main frame with numerous
accessory images and layer views within the same main frame, accessible
with the tabs which are there now. The tabbed interface is much nicer
than separate windows and much easier for people to work with. This is
important.  

File->new should open a new window or new document instance - agreed,
but its label should be changed to "new document". I'll make that change
before much longer, and make toolbars for the current tabbed interface
for brushes, layers, etc. - to allow access from toolbars,.  Those
changes are fairly easy.  There should also be a way, though, to open
multiple images in the same frame with the tabs as we now have or add
new ones.  Both (opening a whole new document and main frame or adding
view to the current one) are needed, or at the very least useful.  Not
to have the multiple images is a loss although I agree that making all
the code work right with multiple images is more difficult.  If it
absolutely can't work with current KOffice common code then I have no
choice but to change it to SDI.

Making the layer views, brushes, etc. accessible from toolbars or
separate toolbars can still work with the sidepanel concept, which I'd
really like to keep, again avoiding a mess all over the desktop just to
access brushes and tools, etc.  These tabbed views of accessories are
not separate documents like the images themselves would be, but they
need not change when loading a new image.

In summary, the current KImageShop gui is exceptionally well thought
out, IMO, and far superior to any other image app I've yet seen or
used.  If it can work with the KOffice common code in loading and saving
documents and embedding there is no reason to change it, just to make it
like other imaage apps with an inferior gui or like other KOffice apps. 
I didn't write the original Krayon gui code but I respect it and it just
grows on a me as user.  Artists will love it, in my opinion.  Right now
it's the best thing Krayon has going for it as the drawing tools and
filers and processing are very incomplete.

Currently Krayon can't load or save anything.  I will next work on
loading and saving so Krayon can load and save images, limiting it to a
single image per document as you request at least at first because that
is easier.  Once the app can load and save and do exports and imports to
and from common image formats with a single image per frame then we can
test some more and determine how to address the issues you have brought
up.

The stuff you mentioned that needs to be added when opening a new image
- size, layers, etc., and brush buttons with artwork that reflects their
use I agree with completely but this take time to add. Also some new
tools are needed for drawing lines and shapes and different kinds of
selections other than rectangular, for a start.  A few of the current
tools don't do much yet, as you may have noticed. 

Thanks for testing this app.   I have been away for a few days but plan
to get back to work on Krayon starting tommorow.  It looks like the
patch for the correct lib name didn't make it in time for 2.0 release,
but it will be there in snapshots for people to test.

John
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