From koffice-devel Wed Dec 07 07:27:11 2005 From: Peter Korn Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:27:11 +0000 To: koffice-devel Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] [MA ODF Accessibility Team] Report from a11y Message-Id: <43968ECF.5050107 () sun ! com> X-MARC-Message: https://marc.info/?l=koffice-devel&m=113402470923970 Hi guys, Gary - thanks for the summary. I've a much longer posting to do, but no time for it at the moment. But a few quick things: 1. Nobody from Microsoft was there that I saw. They were invited, but didn't show. 2. Jerry Berrier didn't make it - he was supposed to be on a panel discussion at the end of the day, but was sick (which was why it was just John Chappel at the end, instead of him and two other panelists). 3. I need multiple OKs before I can do anything with the audio recording, but I hope to get them all... Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. Gary Cramblitt wrote: > Mark Bucciarelli and I attended a meeting 29 Nov in Boston, Massachusetts. > The meeting was sponsored by the Disabilities Law Center (DLC), Massachusetts > Office on Disability (MOD), and the Disability Policy Consortium. > > The following description is mostly mine with input from Mark. It is taken > from memory and the few notes we made. Nothing in this report should be > taken as fact, completely accurate, or official policy. It is our > interpretation of what was said. Where Mark and I differ in interpretation > or viewpoint, I've so indicated. > > It was not a large meeting. About 30 people I'd say. Some of the people > present had no idea what Gnome or KDE are. > > The title of the meeting was "What is Open Source?", but from what Mark and I > could tell, the real purpose of the meeting was: > > 1. To smooth the ruffled feathers of the disabled community in > Massachusetts and give them a chance to be the focus. > > 2. To inform the various groups in MA that represent users with > disabilities as to what the MA Open Document Format (ODF) decision means. > > 3. To describe the current state of accessibility (a11y) in applications, > desktops, and operating systems that support ODF and PDF. > > 4. To describe the process that will be used to implement the decision with > respect to a11y. > > 5. Identify the issues that need to be solved in order to fully support > users with disabilities in MA using ODF and PDF. > > The formal speakers were: > > Peter Korn of Sun. > > Aaron Leventhal of IBM. > > Peter Quinn, CIO of MA Information Technology Division (ITD). > > Greg Pisocky of Adobe Systems. > > John Chappel of the Massachusetts Rehabilitation Commission (MRC). > > Leon Shiman of Shiman Associates, member of the X.org Board of Directors. > Leon is our main contact and the reason we were able to attend. > > I (Gary) also spoke *very* briefly, representing KDE e.V. > > We haven't seen a full attendees list, but some names we did get were: > > Christine ("Chris") Griffin, Disabilities Law Center (convened the meeting) > > Bill Allan, Head of Disability Policy Consortium, not a state organization, > rather a lobby/advocate for the disabled. 25% of his board requires > accessibility technology to use computers. Bill has spoken out against the > ODF decision. > > Jerry Berrier, President of the Bay State Council for the Blind. He has > spoken out against the ODF decision before. > > Alan Yates, Product Manager at Microsoft. > > Myra Berloff, Massachusetts Office of Disabilities (MOD), ADA Coordinator for > the State (Americans with Disabilities Act--big Federal Law). She is > working on Memorandum of Understanding between the various MA agencies as to > how a11y will be addressed. > > Barbara Lyberger, an attorney for the Massachusetts Office on Disability. > > Paul Snayd, IBM. > > Cynthai Ice, IBM. > > I won't report everything that was covered in detail (I couldn't do that even > if I wanted to). Peter Korn recorded audio of the meeting and once he has > received an OK from everyone who spoke, intends to put it on the web. At the > very least, he intends to publish his part of the meeting, and by far, he had > the longest part. Let me try to summarize what was covered briefly. > > 1. Peter Korn gave two talks. The first talk was about standards in general, > open standards, how open standards relate to open source (most people confuse > the two), and how all these relate to accessibility, accessibility standards, > and ODF. > > 2. Peter Korn gave a second talk on Open Source Accessibility & Open Office > Accessibility. Peter described how the Microsoft Active > Accessibility API (MSAA) has stifled progress in a11y on the Windows > platform. For instance, the MSAA is not a robust enough API for assistive > screen readers to get at the contents of documents. It also doesn't permit > scripting of applications via the API. Most of the "success" in Microsoft > Office has been through the "heroic" efforts of AT vendors such as Freedom > Scientific (makers of JAWS) and Ai Squared (makers of ZoomText) who have had > to reverse engineer the MS Office applications in order to achieve the > admittedly excellent support they have. He pointed out this is limited to MS > Office applications, not the entire Windows desktop. He pointed out that > these implementations often require specialized hardware drivers that don't > support all hardware. He pointed out that the AT vendors are going to have > to do this all over again with MS Office 12, that upgrades will be expensive > for the MA government and for users, and that significant retraining will be > needed. He described this as the "bolt-on" approach. Then he described the > a11y infrastructure approach, where a11y is built into the system from the > ground up. (Though he didn't say it, he's talking about AT-SPI.) He > described how such a robust infrastructure benefits all applications running > on the system, and provides opportunities to enhance a11y that simply are not > possible with the bolt-on approach. Peter then gave a demonstration under > Gnome of Gnopernicus screen reader, Gnome On-screen Keyboard (GOK), and > Dasher. Peter mentioned that a scripting screen reader named Orca will be out > in beta sometime in April or May. > > 3. Aaron Leventhal described the current state of a11y in Mozilla and > Firefox. Firefox 1.5, which was released the same day, has significant a11y > enhancements. There are many technical issues to deal with however. In > particular, how should browsers deal with pages when part of the page has > dynamically changed (timed javascript and flash for example)? Firefox has > incorporated accessibility in their project by having a team that reviews all > commits to ensure they comply with accessibility issues. This is now a > project policy. Not a lot of rules but they stick to them. (Could KDE > develop similar rules and script them?) > > 4. Peter Quinn directly addressed the disabled community. Some points: > > - categorically will move the date if the chosen ODF product(s) cannot give at > least the current level of a11y functionality. > > - is very reticent to change the date because there is a lot of industry > attention and focus now (IBM + Sun together) and it is wise to keep the > pressure up. > > - spoke about the Microsoft application to ECMA to have their XML schema > ratified as an open standard: 9 - 18 months, then they have to go through > international standards body. Basically a no-go if he can stick to the > 1/2007 date. > > 5. Greg Pisocky described the PDF/A standard and the enhancements for a11y in > both Adobe Writer and Reader. He gave a demonstration of OpenOffice.org > running under JAWS (which currently works but with lots of fixable problems), > had oo.org write out a PDF/A file and speak it in Reader. Since Adobe Reader > has its own TTS capability, the point of this demonstration was that ODF > supports a11y and since oo.org exports to PDF, it can create highly > accessible documents (at least as far as PDF goes). The PDF "TouchUp > ReadOrder Tool" looked really nice. Issues it dealt with: > > - Logical Read Order (for example, in a doc with two columns, don't > read across from one column to the other, like Jaws does now in > OOo). > > - Alt text for graphics > > - Logical tab order (for forms) > > - Short field descriptions (for forms) > > - Tags on figures and tables > > Mark felt Greg's demonstration was very impressive. His was the only demo > that showed JAWS and Mark was impressed with its capabilities. It was amazing > to watch and see how a blind person must interact with a computer. As > someone who had not seen that before, Mark appreciated that he could use it > and showed how it worked. I thought it was less so because it showed the > current problems between oo.org and JAWS (airing dirty laundry). > > 6. I was only allowed to speak for about 2 minutes, in which I stated that > Mark and I were volunteer developers representing the e.V., that KDE is > committed to accessibility and desires to cooperate with accessibility groups > and users in MA and elsewhere to improve a11y in KDE and KOffice, that KDE is > an alternative graphical desktop, that KDE includes a suite of office > applications called KOffice, that the suite includes word processor, > spreadsheet, presentation, project planning, database and graphical > applications, that KOffice reads and writes ODF, that KDE and Gnome are > cooperating and not competing, that KDE 4 will share the very same a11y > infrastructure as Gnome, and that this means the AT tools in Gnome will work > with KDE apps and vice versa. > > 7. John Chappel spoke briefly about the CRM's plans. The CRM, together with > the MOD, are preparing a set of a11y software standards. The standards will > be published on the web with a public comment period. The CRM and MOD are > also looking at what a11y training requirements will be needed as a result of > the ODF decision. > > > Some important points that were raised in questions and discussion: > > 1. ODF software not only needs good user documentation and training, but that > documentation and training itself must be accessible. Something to keep in > mind is that most of the trainers are themselves disabled. > > 2. MA doesn't have a good sense of exactly what a11y functionality is > currently being used within the MA government and therefore would be a > priority when migrating to new software. There are certain features, for > instance, that are available in JAWS and ZoomText, but are these features > actually being used? A survey to collect that information is underway. > > 3. Should Adobe Writer, oo.org, and KOffice "nag" document authors to put > a11y information in the document? From an a11y standpoint, yes, they must. > From a usability standpoint, such a feature would just be turned off and > ignored by most users, even if were the default. At the very least, the > capability should be in the software, and it should be possible for admins to > force it on. > > 4. Disabled government employees are concerned that a) they are going to need > extensive training in using the new software (one blind person stated that he > required 6 months of training with MS Office and JAWS), b) if a variety of > software is used within the MA government, their ability to move jobs from > one agency to another would be impaired, c) since most disabled people in MA > use Windows, their ability to get a MA government job will similarly be > impaired, d) the current state of a11y in ODF software is horrible and just > won't do, and e) promises are being made to fix this, but they don't have > confidence those promises will be fulfilled. > > 5. Because of #4, not only should MA have a standard document format, but it > should have a standard application user interface as well, so that users with > disabilities who are forced to change applications do not have to learn a > completely new interface. > > 6. A blind person's desktop will be the same as a sighted persons. No > reduced capability. > > > The following are my (Gary's) personal observations and thoughts. > > Peter Korn did a fantastic job at explaining how the bolt-on approach impedes > a11y progress (and is expensive), and that the AT-SPI approach offers many > opportunities to not only meet the current level of a11y under Windows, but > to exceed it. He barely mentioned KDE or KOffice, but I still thought the > talk was an excellent one. If you can listen to his presentation (I'll post a > link when he puts it up), I urge you to listen. Despite his efforts, the > message just didn't seem to get through to the people with disabilities in > the room. They kept saying (not in these words exactly, but in essence), "we > don't want to have to change". They are happy with what they have and view > the ITD decision as a) forcing them to accept a level of a11y that is much > less than what they currently have, and b) raising huge roadblocks to job > mobility and availability for disabled persons. Despite Peter and others > mentioning several times that Office 12 will force change on them whether > they like it or not, they keep saying "don't make us change." We need to > keep hammering home the message that they are going to have to accept change > and that non-choice is coming from Microsoft. We also need to address the > training issue in a big way. > > IMHO, the demonstrations were very impressive and should have > "sold" the users with disabilities on the possibilities for the future that > AT-SPI creates. Alas, that didn't seem to happen. Mark thought Peter's talks > were too technical, too long, pushed UNIX too much, and not appropriate for > the audience. Given the questions that followed, Mark may be correct. > > I was also disturbed by #4, #5 and #6 above. In essence, this is the pro- > "software monoculture" argument. If everybody in the world uses the same > software and it never changes, then users with disabilities are much better > off. It was particularly distressing to me to hear these comments coming > from the MOD and MRC people, who will be writing the software a11y standards. > When pressed, most backed down somewhat to restrict the requirement to "all > ODF software should have common functionality and a common keyboard > interface, i.e., the same shortcuts across all ODF applications." This > "requirement" could have a profound impact on whether KDE and KOffice are > ever used in MA. Think about the frame-based interface in KWord for instance > and how this differs from the style-based interface in oowriter. If the > software monoculture requirement wins the day, in essense it means KDE must > *be* Windows. argh! > > OTOH, we must not dismiss the very real and valid concerns about job mobility > for disabled users. I think we can address this in two ways. > > 1. MA and the open source community (us) need to develop a robust strategy > for a11y training. We should develop an "accessibility kit" that agencies, > governments, schools, universities, etc can easily obtain to help them > implement training. Obviously, a11y training cannot be fully automated, but > we can provide most of the electronic materials that would be needed. > > 2. We need to keep hammering home the message that a) software keeps > changing, particularly when only one vendor is controlling it, and b) the > a11y infrastructure approach offers opportunities to extend functionality > beyond what is currently implemented, and therefore, offers positive change, > not negative change. > > In addition, Peter Korn pointed out that if MA develops a11y training in a > variety of applications and platforms, it will open up job opportunities to > people with disabilities that they might not otherwise have had. Jobs in > UNIX system administration and website/services creation, for instance. > > IMHO, this "software monoculture" argument could be the greatest obstacle to > adoption of ODF and open source software in MA, second only to the dirty > politics. > > > In a separate private conversation, Leon asked us for the following > information. He needs specific information, not generalizations. I'd like > whoever can supply the information, in as detailed and comprehensive manner > as you can manage, to send it to Leon (leon at magic dot shiman dot com). He > needs this info by 25 Dec 2005. > > 1. What capabilities are needed in X.org in order to implement a11y in KDE? > (I know almost nothing about X.org, but I think this means composite and > transparency?) What specific problems exist and are they fixable by Jan > 2007? Leon is on the board of X.org, so he can help to make things happen. > > 2. What platforms does KOffice run under? Sun/Solaris? BSD? All Linux > distros? If not, which ones? > > 3. What are the issues and problems with D-BUS that need to be solved before > KDE and AT-SPI can migrate to it? He has heard that D-BUS is "not ready for > primetime" and would like to know details. > > 4. What are the current issues and limitations of the Gnome ATK and AT-SPI > with respect to KDE that would have to be solved? > > In addition, Leon wants to perform usability testing of KOffice. He wants us > to supply him with the "best" version of KOffice we can manage to put > together and also provide someone who can "hand hold" while they do the > testing. That person would not have to be physically present, but they must > be reachable by phone or email and knowledgeable. He wants to do this > testing very soon (around end of year). This is also an opportunity for > KOffice to get some valuable and detailed testing results. > > He also wants to perform accessibility testing of KOffice. I'm trying to talk > him out of this one, since I've already written a detailed accessibility > report myself. > _______________________________________________ koffice-devel mailing list koffice-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/koffice-devel