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List:       koffice-devel
Subject:    Re: Bug#43832: No way to set default page to open up by default
From:       NOLARD Michel <mnolard () info ! fundp ! ac ! be>
Date:       2002-06-16 0:03:37
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Le Jeudi 13 Juin 2002 17:11, Thomas Zander a écrit :
> On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 04:12:00PM +0200, NOLARD Michel wrote:
> > Le Jeudi 13 Juin 2002 09:47, Emmanuel Touzery a ?crit :
> > > Hello,
> > > 
> > > 	Personnally i'm not bothered by this screen at the beginning of koffice 
> > > programs (so don't expect me to send a patch :O) ), but i think there is 
> > > maybe a better solution (?).
> > > 	asking the user is The Good Thing. now, do we really need to steal him the 
> > > focus and force him to click on OK?
> > 
> > In fact, this IS the problem : some users want to get rid of this superfluous click (my sister, for \
> > example), while others (like me) prefer having the choice... Definitely, it is the point where work \
> > is needed ! I think that before adding functionnalities, a series of usability polls should be made \
> > about KOffice...
> 
> I see it more like a wizard. I'm actually thinking of putting more pages in that
> dialog if we have functionality like macro's which can 'adjust' the page with 
> things like fax-templates and love-letter templates etc. 
> A nice wizard that allows you to fill in your fax-default values and then gives
> you a filled in page with the cursor blinking in the content area and the number
> etc filled in seems like something lots of people will like.
> 
> If you don't want all that, just press enter one time seems like a very nice 
> way to provide this functionality (in the future) while still 
> - having a minimum of dialogs on screen in all situations
> - staying consistent; a New Document will always do the same thing.
> - provide a linear workflow instead of a single point where the user has to
> look for a way to go in order to do what he wants to do. I.e. guide the user.
> - following the styleguide.

Definitely a good idea !



 
> > Another example is the "close the last document" thing : the user is working on many documents, say \
> > in KWord. At some point, when the copy paste is finished, he begin to close all the windows. But, if \
> > he wants to create another doc, he has to create it BEFORE closing all previous opened document if he \
> > doesn't want to "suffer" the loading time for KWord, as Kword will exit when final document is \
> > closed. It is contra-intuitive as the user want to :
> > 	- stop working on the current documents
> > 	- then create a new document to work on
> > But he has to :
> > 	- create an empyt new document
> > 	- stop working on the current documents by closing them
> > 	- start working on his new doc.
> 
> Yes, I have seen the problem. You don't want the window to stay open, but you still 
> want the functionality it provides.  That's an impossible situation.
> 
> We solved it by allowing a Close. This allows you to close the document, but not the
> window.  Hope this is what you were after.
> 
> The bottom line is that this is due to the SDI manner of working, and it happens
> with all unix applications. Also with lots of Windows applications.

In fact, if you look closer to MS-Office 2000, you'll see that they have resolved the problem ! A second \
"cross" button is displayed in the menu bar, at the right. It allows to close the document when there is \
only one currently opened. The position of the button is very well reflected : it is in user's field of \
view when he goes to the mainwindow's right cross. The problem, under KDE, is that the position of this \
button can be configured to be on the left...


 
> > I have still another example : when a user want to edit the header or the footer, he has to go to \
> > View>footer or View>header, though in Word, since many years, simply double clicking in the supposed \
> > area is sufficient. I think this can be solved easily... as normal user don't bother of this, but \
> > advanced user has to do it quite often... and there is no option to automatically display header or \
> > footer...
> 
> Well, the header/footer are actually turned on with this, so there was no room for it 
> to click on.
> Hmm, perhaps this should be called differently, at least it should not be in the View
> menu.
> Hmm, you have an idea on where the current functionality should go?

I think that 2 things can provided this :
	- a toggle button which (de)activate the access to header AND footer : it is not a problem if the access \
                to those two parts is allowed at the same moment.
	- the interface part of the configuration dialog should contain this choice. -> the "files" options \
should be put in a "files" part...  



> > You see, there are lots of usability problems like these in KOffice, and I think it should be \
> > something more important into developpers' minds as the user has to use an application before \
> > discovering its exciting new functionnalities...
> 
> I try to keep new functionality in line with the current train of thoughts, that is because
> I believe we are going in the right direction.  But more so since the way things are done
> should only be learned one time, the rest can be logically deducted.  However hard people
> might find logical deduction, it still allows a lot lower learning curve then internally
> inconsistent GUIs have.
> 
> > > 	Attached a shot from wordXP. check out the right of the screen. maybe we 
> > > could have this, that phases out after a timeout (yes, i know, koffice has 
> > > more things to do before doing this kind of things :O), but just a 
> > > "theoritical" possible improvement).
> > > 
> > > emmanuel
> > 
> > I hope that noone will flame you for using Microsoft as an example. I won't start the fight ;-)
> > I think it is a globally new behaviour in Windows XP and XP's products. It is a good idea IMHO, but \
> > it has to be followed by a closer integration of this way of thought in KDE itself : widgets \
> > especially designed for this purpose,... But, if KOffice would show the way, I would be proud to be \
> > part of the movement ! ;-) This a kind of new dialog system : You use the widget like if it was a \
> > dialog, but there is no Ok, Cancel or Apply button, and it is docked in the MainWindow. And it \
> > disappears when needed...
> 
> Actually, this has been something which is on my agenda for 3 years allready :)
> I still would very much like a number of extentions in toolbars and in the way
> we use them.
> This would be easy to do in a toolbar. No custom-widget needed.

Maybe we can start with this when final 1.2 is released ! I would be proud to be part of this improvement \
in KOffice suite !


> -- 
> Thomas Zander                                           zander@planescape.com
> We are what we pretend to be
> 

Hack well !

-- 
NOLARD Michel
Délégué 2° Maîtrise et Licence en Informatique
E-mail : mnolard@info.fundp.ac.be

"Unix is user friendly. It's just very picky about who its friends are..."
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