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List:       koffice
Subject:    Re: Problem: Close & Exit
From:       "Troy Unrau" <jhtd () mts ! net>
Date:       1999-09-09 3:56:13
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Personally, I'd say that this is more of an MDI, SDI issue.  There are
variations of each that exist throughout KDE, and this needs to be
standardized before we should even consider the Close/Exit problem.

The few variations of MDI that exist each have their advantages and
disadvantages.  I'll list a few that I've encountered:

o1o  Espen Sand is attempting to implement a tabbed document bar that sits
right above the actual document workspace.  These tabs would contain the
names of the open documents and could be switched between by clicking on the
tabs.  The tab bar could also be disabled through the view menu and one
could switch documents through the "Window" menu.  I'm not sure what the
menu is called, but it was something to that extent.  I am also not sure if
this implementation is completed yet, but he was to test it in KHexEdit.

o2o  Mosfet and the artists have been working on a more MS Windows-like MDI
for use in KImageShop.  This uses a large window with many smaller
independent windows which are semi-independent.

o3o  KDockWidget (I think; could be wrong) is being used as a base for MDI
where the extra docs or smaller windows just attach to the main window as
though they were toolbars.

o4o  There is also SDI derived MDI which has things such as New Window and
such and so forth.  This is the most inconsistent of all the listed MDI-like
interfaces.

The above listed all have their pro's and con's.

PRO's
=====

o1o  This is probably the most user friendly of the above MDI's.  It is
different than the feel of MS Windows, and yet very user friendly and would
solve the Clode/Exit problem.

o2o  This is the MDI that most people are familiar with, and works very well
with programs such as KImageShop and IDE's.

o3o  KDockWidget is (so I've been told) easy to program for and can be used
in a variety of situations.  As I don't know to much about it, I will
refrain from saying anything as to misinform anyone.

o4o  This is probably the most flexable of the aforementioned.

Cons
====

o1o  This is not developed fully yet, and may not be very adaptible.  It is
also not possible to spread documents accross desktops, nor to have more
than one visible simultaneously.  This may raise some problems for DND, but
this could be over come in such a way as that you have drag something over a
tab, let it hover for a moment, and it would change to that document for an
easy insert.  I am not sure as to whether this is to be standardized or not.
Perhaps we should contact Espen.

o2o  This is not very nice on the eyes, nor does is permit docs to be
present on other desktops, however, you wouldn't have the DND problem
mentioned above.

o3o  This is also no cross desktop compatible either, but it is asthetically
appealing.  It may not be good for having very many docs open.

o4o  This is a lot more flexible, but here is where you get the major
Close/Exit problems, and ease of use issues.

=====

My personal opinions is that the solution that Espen (1) offers is the best
suited to everyone's need provided that the DND stuff was working.  It would
be very easy for end-users, and the menu options could consist of "Close
File" and "Exit."  If all the document driven apps follows this method, it
would create a clean interface leading to good screen real-estate, good hci,
and most likely rather easy implementation.  If DND worked, I would vouch
for this type of DND.  It should be allowable to have multiple instances
open in order to have different docs on different desktops.

The KDockWidget and KImageShop-like MDI's would work very well for apps such
as IDE's, and graphics programs (wanting to see multiple things at once).
I'll assume that if we make a standard, there will be allowable exceptions,
however I would /very/ strongly suggest a unification of MDI.

Comments, Corrections, Flames, and Money (I wish) are welcome

> I posted this mail to KOffice and directly to all persons who responsed
> to the KDE Standards web site. Hope thats ok...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Peter
>
> ------------------
>
> Currently I try to collect comments about the new KDE Standards web site
> (prerelease). One problem has to be solved: the behaviour of Close &
> Exit. Because this problem has very much to do with KOffice, I mail it
> to this list :-)
>
> I know it sounds easy:
> - Exit quits the application and closes all windows.
> - Close closes the window.
>
> In the KDE Standards was said, that every window must have an Exit.
>
> Please read following examples carefully, to understand where the
> problem is ;-)
>
> Example 1:
> ----------
> Let's assume we start a small editor, which has an Exit in the file-menu
> (like it's said in the standards). Let's say this editor doesn't support
> a Multiple Document Interface, so you can only edit one document (no
> 'New Window' etc.).
>
> Fine. But now I want to edit another document. I don't want to loose the
> old document, so I start another instance of the application (e. g. by
> klicking in kpanel) => now I've two editors on my screen, both of them
> have an Exit in their file-menu.
>
> => If I click on Exit of one editor, it closes the window and quits the
> instance of the application - the other application is still there.
>
> Ok, here's no real problem. But still there's a bad feeling what an
> "application" is for a user...
>
> Example 2:
> ==========
> Now we have a better editor, which has a 'New Window', a 'Close' and an
> 'Exit' in the file-menu! We start the editor, select 'New Window' and
> now we have two equal looking windows on the screen.
>
> Close closes the actual window, Exit closes both windows and quits the
> application (we have 2 windows, but only one instance of the application
> behind...).
>
> Here's the first problem: from the users point of view in example 1 Exit
> closes only one window, in example 2 Exit closes both!!! An average user
> isn't interested and doesn't know, if there are two ore one instances of
> applications behind the window.
>
> Example 3:
> ==========
> And here's the main-problem: now we start an instance of the 'better
> editor' and DON'T (!) select 'New Window', but start another instance
> from the editor with kpanel => now we have 2 windows with Close & Exit,
> but now the Exit closes only one window!!!!!!
>
> --------------------
>
> Hope you see know what I mean. Even developers have problems with Close
> & Exit. Try to start 10 different KDE-applications and look into the
> file-menu: sometimes theres only a Close, sometimes a Quit, sometimes
> Close & Exit, only an Exit... and even worse: they act different!
>
> If I'm honest: I never understood the necessity of Exit. Everybody (!)
> understands what a Close does: it closes the window (it does the same as
> pressing the X-Button in the upper right!). From the user-point of view
> he doesn't care if theres also an application behind or not.
>
> How many of you really need (!) an Exit? If I have 3 windows open for
> KWord, it takes me 3 seconds to close them with the X-Button - no
> relation to the 2 hours I spent writing three documents :-) It also took
> me around 5 seconds to open these three windows, so please don't tell me
> you NEED an Exit because of the time...
>
> So my question to you is:
> SHOULD WE THROW OUT THE EXIT AND ONLY HAVE A CLOSE?
>
> I know from earlier discussions, that some will protest against that -
> please don't start flaming, it's only a point of discussion to solve the
> problem. If someone has a better solution: please mail it :-)
>
> Peter
>
> PS: To MAC-experienced users: how does the Mac solve this problem?

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