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List:       koffice
Subject:    Re: file formats [Re: Question about your KPresenter's review]
From:       Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy () thyrsus ! com>
Date:       2002-03-13 6:00:32
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On Monday 11 March 2002 07:59 am, Vadim Plessky wrote:
> On Monday 11 March 2002 13:50, Rob Landley wrote:
> |   On Sunday 10 March 2002 05:18 pm, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote:

>
> |   Nobody fits files on a 1.4 floppy anymore.  We all have 20 gig drives,
> | and 50% of the population now has broadband at HOME, let alone in the
> | office...
>
> Just yesterday copied 3 files (indeed, .doc) on floppy - to move data from
> one computer to another.
> As about BROADBAND - well, I believe to you that 50% of _US_ population has
> broadband.
> Situation is different here - broadband is less than 1% for home users, and
> companies have usually 128Kbit-256Kbit connections (ISDN)

I'm sure it is, Vadim.  However, even 50% of US population is a much larger 
potential user base than all of the computer users in Russia.  Remember that 
what we started out talking about was increasing the total number of Linux 
users.  That's likely to happen more quickly in America, where more people, 
technical and non-technical, are already using computers.


> I hope one day we will be able to convert back and forth to MS Word (from
> KWord) And this will be trivial...

So do I.  Now we all need to think about what needs to be done to make it 
happen!




> |   > > Later: we get KOffice on Qt/Embedded, working on Compaq iPAQ /
> |   > > Sharp Zaurus / Casio Cassiopea, and you get really "portable
> |   > > documents".
> |
> |   I've got portable documents.  I've got a dell laptop.  It came with
> | windows before I reformatted it.  The zaurus has an annoying keyboard,
> | and the rest don't have any keyboard.  (Have you ever tried doing any
> | actual work on a zaurus screen?)
> |
> |   That's nice, but the entire userbase of those three products combined
> | is considerably smaller than that of the macintosh.  Why not go after the
> | 90% of the market using windows first, and THEN worry about the corner
> | cases?


> Well, Mac has less than 1% of the market share here (In Russia), with Linux
> (estimated by me, by traffic analysis on several general-purpose
> information sites) around 1.5% - 2.5%.
> This means Windows has 96%-97% of the market.

Which is more or less what Rob said.


> But: problem with PDAs is their price. As soon as price goes down to $100
> USD, market will expand. And than you will get millions of those devices.

Only if people can use them.  I haven't tried a Zaurus, but I have no 
patience with PDA because it takes me so long to enter data into them that I 
don't gain any advantage from having the thing around (I've played with a 
Compaq IPAQ, which runs Linux.)



> |   > > Having smaller size of document is one of KWord benefits.
> |
> |   It's the only one I've heard mentioned, and it's completely irrelevant
> | to most users.
>
> Common, it's very rellevant!
>
> Other benefits:
> * XML usage

XML sounds great, but I still need something that I can use to edit .doc 
files without requiring me to take a lot of extra time.



> * National Language support (in particular, Cyrillic  and Chineese support)

For an English speaker, this advantage is largely philosophical in nature 
(i.e., it's a good idea to support lots of languages, even if all I need is 
English).


 
> * PDF generation feature
> * True WYSIWYG (KWord 1.2 from CVS, new unique feature)

I point out I don't have KWord 1.2 yet...




> * ah: available for *free*

Free is an advantage only if you can use the free item that you get.



> * small size of KOffice package (less than 10MB, comparing to 69MB for Open
> Office or 1CD/650MB for MS Office) -> you can update it over Internet ->
> "Live Update"

I suppose that *is* an advantage, though I prefer not to have to update my 
software very often...



> * Internet-enabled file operations (inherited from KDE I/O slaves)
>   BTW: have you tried to open file from ftp server in MS Office?)

No.  


> * Frame support, including Frames' z-index (KWord from CVS)
>  -> so you can use it as a DTP tool.

I, an ordinary technical user, don't even know what this means. What is DTP?




> |   > > MS Office was designed to read many formats, but to write only
> |   > > (mostly) MS Office formats, "to lock" the user base into MS Office.
> |   >
> |   > Right; it's one of MS's tools for maintaining its monopoly; I
> |   > understand that.
> |
> |   One detail he missed is that the product has over a 90% market share of
> | all word processing documents being produced in north america.  This lock
> | in has been very very effective, and any solution that hopes it simply
> | goes away without having to address it goes well beyond wishful
> | thinking...
>
> Indeed, lock was very effective.
> But now MS is doomed to loose position.
> KDE2 is here, KDE3 is coming, in one year MS will feel marketshare
> errosion.

Really?  Can they edit Word documents as well as read them?  (I won't even go 
into the fact that MS has a huge advertising budget and can get its software 
preloaded onto machines, and KDE has neither).



[text cut here because I commented in an earlier posting]


> |   > > One of the key questions is how powerfull the Content Owner.
> |   > > Imagine for a minute: "Lord of The Rings" is available only in
> |   > > KWord format (say, for on-line sales or downloading)
> |   > > What will happen in this case?
> |   > > I guess most people who want to read this book, will buy some Linux
> |   > > distribution, install KOffice - just in order to get / read famous
> |   > > book.
> |
> |   Didn't happen with e-books, I don't see why KOffice would be any
> | different.
>
> |   People keep THINKING this sort of thing would happen.  They spent
> | rather a lot of money speculating it would.  And after about three years
> | of absolutely nothing, they packed it in.  (The lord of the rings is
> | still available in paperback, you know...)
>
> Com'on, they charge premioum for e-books!
> KOffice is *free*.

Come on, Vadim.  This time Rob is trying to use *your* analogy.  He's 
pointing out that the last time a new format (e-books) was introduced, and 
works were put out solely in that format, people didn't jump to the new 
format simply to read those works.  

And it's impossible to erase all the copies of popular works on older formats 
(Lord of the Rings is, of course, still available in paperback, and 
hardcover, all over the world....)



> Have you ever tried Konqueror? :-)
> I can agree that KWord is not MS Office-kiler (yet), but Konq... It
> rulez!..

As Rob said at the bottom of his posting, he likes KDE....
It is because of Rob that I'm using KDE at all. Eric, my husband, is a Gnome 
user.  :-)


>
> |   > > Problem with Star Office that it can't support Cyrillic correctly.
> |
> |   But it can support ENGLISH correctly...
>
> And ... you think it's enough?

Enough for what?  Enough for the whole world to be able to use Star Office?  
No.  Enough to induce a large percentage of people who would otherwise stay 
with Windows and MS Office to try Linux?  Maybe.



> |   > > People who tried it here suggested that a whole StarOffice is a
> |   > > joke, nothing more.
> |
> |   And yet it's what Linus Torvalds has on his box.  Why?  It reads and
> | writes Word files, that's why.  (Read "just for fun", it's mentioned more
> | than once...)
>
> Hmmm. It has been mentioned several times, in different places that Linus
> is not very good advocate for Linux, or Linux apps.
> He tells that he is interested in *developing* (not *advocating*). And
> about competitors, he just "doesn't care". WHy he should care about .doc
> support?.. 

The point here is not whether Linux cares or not.  The point is that the 
world knows (thanks to "Just For Fun", ) that the guy who started the whole 
Linux revolution in the first place can't find a better alternative than Star 
Office to deal with whatever .doc files he does get. That does not look good 
for either the KDE or Gnome teams, I'm afraid.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <cathy@thyrsus.com>

"The meeting of personalities is like the contact of chemical substances; 
if there is any reaction, both are transformed."  Carl Jung
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