On 12/28/06, klik-devel-request@kde.org < klik-devel-request@kde.org> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: fuseiso patched to support chroot jail (Alexey Eremenko)
   2. fuseiso-p5 + fakechroot-p1 : No need to --bind now !
      (lionel.tricon@free.fr )
   3. The future direction of klik development (Alexey Eremenko)
   4. our website seems not to work fully: (Alexey Eremenko)
   5. Re: fuseiso-p5 + fakechroot-p1 : No need to --bind now    !
      (Alexey Eremenko)
   6. Re: The future direction of klik development
      (lionel.tricon@free.fr)
   7. Re: The future direction of klik development (Alexey Eremenko)
   8. Re: The future direction of klik development
      (lionel.tricon@free.fr)
   9. Re: The future direction of klik development (Alexey Eremenko)
  10. Re: The future direction of klik development (probono)
  11. Re: The future direction of klik development (Alexey Eremenko)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:56:49 +0200
From: "Alexey Eremenko" <al4321@gmail.com >
Subject: Re: [klik-devel] fuseiso patched to support chroot jail
To: klik-devel@kde.org
Message-ID:
        < 7fac565a0612270856j62697c10x80efa09c8bc355c0@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Hello Lionel and klikers !

Now there is a new problem - compatibility across Linuxes.

Until now klik-client used bash-technology, so we stayed more-or-less
compatible across distros. That means we didn't need to compile stuff
and single client worked across many distros.

Now if we adopt the new fuse technology, how we will be able to
install a klik client ?

The standards OSes don't provide that functionality (even newest
openSUSE 10.2 boxed version doesn't) !

make a klik-client distro-specific or what ?

I can try to make a klik-client to be openSUSE 10.2 specific, but how
do we cover installation on all other distros?

Possible solution:
1. "fork" the client to "fuseklik-client" which will be distro specific.
NOTE: forking the client does NOT mean forking the project.

Rather, I see this option as to go forward and stay compatible at
once. Because that move (i.e. compiling and depending) is risky.

2. I want this new solution (fuse-klik), the other alternative (plash)
and the old solution (normal klik-client) to be compatible at both
server level (klik://myapp) *and* image-level -- final .cmg's or
.app's.

3. This way we will be able to both stay compatible on all distros,
*and* move forward not into one, but two directions simultaneously.

4. How to implement my crazy idea?

A. make the klik server generate ".cmg's" that include all that new information.
B. modify the new experimental clients to support the standard images
(I don't know if it's possible to add the generic mounting info into
the clients instead of the cmg.
C. if the above is not possible, we should sit together and define a
new image format that will be able to run across different clients.
(i.e. new format must contain generic data as well as specific data
for all 3 clients - normal, plash and fuse)

5. I know that the conservatives will hate me for that, but the
Open-Minded will love me for that idea. Basically my idea ensures
progress, while not risking with anything.
We don't risk losing Lionel. We don't risk broke compatibility with
older distros. No risk at all.

What do klikers think of it? Any ideas?

-Alexey Eremenko. 27.12.2006.

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:30:02 +0100
From: lionel.tricon@free.fr
Subject: [klik-devel] fuseiso-p5 + fakechroot-p1 : No need to --bind
        now !
To: Alexey Eremenko <al4321@gmail.com>
Cc: klik-devel@kde.org
Message-ID: < 1167240602.4592ad9a6e050@imp8-g19.free.fr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Today is a good day !

I have patched fakechroot with success to allow us to access special devices
despite of the internal behavior of fuseiso. Fakechroot read directly real
directories like /dev, /proc, /tmp and the $HOME of the user instead of the
ones from fuseiso.

So, if you install fuseiso-p5 and fakechroot-p1, you can run my testing cmg
files without any troubles i hope (if you have fuse installed) and without the
need of having bindmount or some other hack on the system. The /etc/fuse.conf
file is not useful any more.

I have updated the wiki pages if you want to comment.

Lionel

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 19:35:00 +0200
From: "Alexey Eremenko" <al4321@gmail.com>
Subject: [klik-devel] The future direction of klik development
To: klik-devel@kde.org
Message-ID:
        <7fac565a0612270935x2dfcf05agb06d63bc6c5bee8f@mail.gmail.com >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Alexey Eremenko <al4321@gmail.com>
Date: Dec 27, 2006 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: [klik-devel] fuseiso patched to support chroot jail
To: klik-devel@kde.org

Hello klikers !

Now there is a new problem - compatibility across Linuxes.

Until now klik-client used bash-technology, so we stayed more-or-less
compatible across distros. That means we didn't need to compile stuff
and single client worked across many distros.

Now if we adopt the new fuse technology, how we will be able to
install a klik client ?

The standards OSes don't provide that functionality (even newest
openSUSE 10.2 boxed version doesn't) !

make a klik-client distro-specific or what ?

Probono will never approve that, and I agree with his stance.

I can try to make a klik-client to be openSUSE 10.2 specific, but how
do we cover installation on all other distros?

Possible solution:
1. "fork" the client to "fuseklik-client" which will be distro specific.
NOTE: forking the client does NOT mean forking the project.

Rather, I see this option as to go forward and stay compatible at
once. Because that move (i.e. compiling and depending) is risky.

2. I want this new solution (fuse-klik), the other alternative (plash)
and the old solution (normal klik-client) to be compatible at both
server level (klik://myapp) *and* image-level -- final .cmg's or
.app's.

3. This way we will be able to both stay compatible on all distros,
*and* move forward not into one, but two directions simultaneously.

4. How to implement my crazy idea?

A. make the klik server generate ".cmg's" that include all that new information.
B. modify the new experimental clients to support the standard images
(I don't know if it's possible to add the generic mounting info into
the clients instead of the cmg.
C. if the above is not possible, we should sit together and define a
new image format that will be able to run across different clients.
(i.e. new format must contain generic data as well as specific data
for all 3 clients - normal, plash and fuse)

5. I know that the conservatives will hate me for that, but the
Open-Minded will love me for that idea. Basically my idea ensures
progress, while not risking with anything.
We don't risk losing Lionel. We don't risk broke compatibility with
older distros. No risk at all.

What do klikers think of it? Any ideas?

-Alexey Eremenko. 27.12.2006.

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 19:36:44 +0200
From: "Alexey Eremenko" <al4321@gmail.com>
Subject: [klik-devel] our website seems not to work fully:
To: klik-devel@kde.org
Message-ID:
        <7fac565a0612270936y2ff95e5dl8c05f9697cdaca31@mail.gmail.com >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

for example this page:
http://klik.atekon.de/docs/?page=Contributors

doesn't load anymore on my system. the main page still runs fine.
anyone else experiencing the same problems?

-Alexey Eremenko. 27.12.2006.

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 19:41:56 +0200
From: "Alexey Eremenko" < al4321@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [klik-devel] fuseiso-p5 + fakechroot-p1 : No need to
        --bind now      !
To: klik-devel@kde.org
Message-ID:
        <7fac565a0612270941o6575a4c2sab96aad747f70e0c@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

On 12/27/06, lionel.tricon@free.fr <lionel.tricon@free.fr> wrote:
> Today is a good day !
>
> I have patched fakechroot with success to allow us to access special devices
> despite of the internal behavior of fuseiso. Fakechroot read directly real
> directories like /dev, /proc, /tmp and the $HOME of the user instead of the
> ones from fuseiso.
>
> So, if you install fuseiso-p5 and fakechroot-p1, you can run my testing cmg
> files without any troubles i hope (if you have fuse installed) and without the
> need of having bindmount or some other hack on the system. The /etc/fuse.conf
> file is not useful any more.
>
> I have updated the wiki pages if you want to comment.
>
> Lionel
>

Very good !
Excellent work !
What do you think about my email of "future direction" ?

-Alexey Eremenko. 27.12.2006.

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:53:31 +0100
From: lionel.tricon@free.fr
Subject: Re: [klik-devel] The future direction of klik development
To: Alexey Eremenko <al4321@gmail.com>
Cc: klik-devel@kde.org
Message-ID: < 1167242011.4592b31beeb41@imp8-g19.free.fr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Selon Alexey Eremenko <al4321@gmail.com>:
> The standards OSes don't provide that functionality (even newest
> openSUSE 10.2 boxed version doesn't) !

I disagree, fuse is provided by default since 2.6.14. No need to install it on
SUSE 10.0 and 10.1 for example, and i guess for SUSE 10.2.

> Possible solution:
> 1. "fork" the client to "fuseklik-client" which will be distro specific.
> NOTE: forking the client does NOT mean forking the project.

I you want to use fuseiso+fakechroot or fuseiso+Plash, i fear there is no
workaround. And as you need cmg-thumbnail as well (or equivalent to gnome) to
get meta-data from the iso/cram file and presenting them to the user (icon,
summary, ...), why not imagine a klik2 package that distro in short term could
even provide by default ... And if it works great, why not an inclusion
directly inside kde4 for example ?

There is no perfect solution.

Lionel

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 20:14:10 +0200
From: "Alexey Eremenko" <al4321@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [klik-devel] The future direction of klik development
To: " lionel.tricon@free.fr" <lionel.tricon@free.fr>
Cc: klik-devel@kde.org
Message-ID:
        <7fac565a0612271014y346ba527v56bb6b0812fa4f2e@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

On 12/27/06, lionel.tricon@free.fr <lionel.tricon@free.fr> wrote:
> Selon Alexey Eremenko < al4321@gmail.com>:
> > The standards OSes don't provide that functionality (even newest
> > openSUSE 10.2 boxed version doesn't) !
>
> I disagree, fuse is provided by default since 2.6.14. No need to install it on
> SUSE 10.0 and 10.1 for example, and i guess for SUSE 10.2.
>

Not true.
FUSE and kernel 2.6.14 is just the first part of the requirements.

There is second part of the requirements (the nasty part):

- fuse-devel (not provided with the standard 10.2 DVD, not in free,
not even in the boxed set)
- compiling patched fuse-iso
- compiling fakechroot

So while the kernel modules don't need to be compiled (thank god) we
still need compilation of some user-space utils.

-Alexey Eremenko

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 20:45:38 +0100
From: lionel.tricon@free.fr
Subject: Re: [klik-devel] The future direction of klik development
To: Alexey Eremenko <al4321@gmail.com>
Cc: klik-devel@kde.org
Message-ID: <1167248738.4592cd627d1ec@imp6-g19.free.fr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

It seems difficult to ask to an end user to compile fuseiso and fakechroot. Some
user-space utility should be available in a binary version, for example a
klikutil package. That does not disturb me if you want to have a good
integration into the Desktop (kde, gnome or others) with cmg-thundnails etc ...

For fuse-devel, strange thing since it's available on
http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/10.2/repo/oss/suse/i586/

But the question is : is there an another solution ? Even with Plash, you will
need fuseiso so ...

Lionel

Selon Alexey Eremenko <al4321@gmail.com>:
> Not true.
> FUSE and kernel 2.6.14 is just the first part of the requirements.
>
> There is second part of the requirements (the nasty part):
>
> - fuse-devel (not provided with the standard 10.2 DVD, not in free,
> not even in the boxed set)
> - compiling patched fuse-iso
> - compiling fakechroot
>
> So while the kernel modules don't need to be compiled (thank god) we
> still need compilation of some user-space utils.
>
> -Alexey Eremenko
>

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 00:15:27 +0200
From: "Alexey Eremenko" < al4321@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [klik-devel] The future direction of klik development
To: klik-devel@kde.org
Message-ID:
        < 7fac565a0612271415s79269063mb23ecc6da963c0d6@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

> But the question is : is there an another solution ?

YES !!! there is - look at what I have proposed earlier - move forward
but stay compatible - i.e. make multiple clients that are compatible
at the image level (either cmg or app).

That is: for full klik experience, users will have to download the
"binary klik client", that includes full KDE and fuse integration.

But for the lazy people with non-major distros, that don't have
precompiled client, we will make available the "standard klik client",
bash based, running on old technology, loop-mount *but* with ability
to run the latest images. (that is: i recommend building minor update
to old klik-client to make it compatible with newer images.)

This will basically mean, that if we, for example will not provide a
binary fuseklik client for say, Fedora Core 7, users will be able to
run with the old bash klik client.

Users will have a choice which client is right for them.

-Alexey Eremenko.

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 00:11:06 +0100
From: probono <probono@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: [klik-devel] The future direction of klik development
To: klik-devel@kde.org
Message-ID:
        <85d71c370612271511j1312bb71kfe2e078bc675803f@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

> fuse-devel (not provided with the standard 10.2 DVD,
> not in free, not even in the boxed set)
> compiling patched fuse-iso
> compiling fakechroot

Why do you think the user has to compile those?
Wouldn't it be possible for the klik client to come bundled with these binaries?
Would there then be another requirement for FUSE besides a recent kernel?

Regards,
probono

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 01:47:50 +0200
From: "Alexey Eremenko" <al4321@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [klik-devel] The future direction of klik development
To: klik-devel@kde.org
Message-ID:
        <7fac565a0612271547r7672297qfe93c8130f6e3b81@mail.gmail.com >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

On 12/28/06, probono <probono@myrealbox.com> wrote:
> > fuse-devel (not provided with the standard 10.2 DVD,
> > not in free, not even in the boxed set)
> > compiling patched fuse-iso
> > compiling fakechroot
>
> Why do you think the user has to compile those?
> Wouldn't it be possible for the klik client to come bundled with these binaries?
> Would there then be another requirement for FUSE besides a recent kernel?
>

How stable are the binary interfaces ?
How stable is the FSH ?

I am not sure if single binary can run across RedHat, SUSE, Debian and Gentoo...
we can try - and run extensive testing - but providing cross-Linux
binaries is not easy.
Alternatively we can provide a script that compiles all the needed
stuff on the client's system (semi-)automatically. But I don't know if
this will be easier solution...

-Alexey Eremenko.

------------------------------

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