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List:       kde-www
Subject:    Re: CSS-based layout
From:       Jason Bainbridge <jbainbridge () gmail ! com>
Date:       2005-11-03 0:21:48
Message-ID: d6491f480511021621p1e254c42g8c2257715b2ae42a () mail ! gmail ! com
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I'm not going to comment on any of this thread specifically but the
comments being made are one of the prime reasons I've been so quiet
and inactive on the list lately.

If someone is willing to do the hard work to get a full CSS based
layout working then why the heck are we raining on their parade? There
is no question that a CSS based site can display well in all major
browsers and degrade just as well in older browsers, it just takes a
lot of work to get there and Urs is making great progress towards
getting there so how about we encourage them and make sure all issues
are addressed instead of just poking holes as to why it won't work? It
can and will work if someone is willing to make it work and Urs seems
to be willing so lets embrace their efforts, eh?

Moving to a CSS based layout alsoo has other benefits as it will make
a redesign much easier and lets face it we are going to have to do
something soon with the current design as it is starting to get dated
and has been in place for quite some time now so is starting to get in
need of a face lift.

Regards,
--
Jason Bainbridge
http://kde.org - webmaster@kde.org
Personal Site - http://jasonbainbridge.com


On 11/2/05, Urs Wolfer <uwolfer@fwo.ch> wrote:
> On Wednesday 02 November 2005 11:52, Christoph Cullmann wrote:
> > On Tuesday 01 November 2005 14:06, Urs Wolfer wrote:
> > > On Tuesday 01 November 2005 12:39, Olaf Jan Schmidt wrote:
> > > > That's wrong. Tables are part of the web standards. Even the W3C used a
> > > > table based layout for their accessibility pages...
> > >
> > > ... _until_ a few months ago.
> > >
> > > I think they had also a reason to change their layout. You can resize the
> > > browser or the fontsize and there are no real problems.
> >
> > You can't resize your browser window to be bigger than your screen, and in
> > this case tables are much better, as the browser will still contain the
> > content readable, while having scrollbars.
>
> I think we must keep it real. Nobody has a resolution below 640x480. The
> website is still usable with 640x480.
>
> > > > > http://uwolfer.fwo.ch/temp/kdedotorg/
> > > >
> > > > It looks nice, but it shares a rendering bug with almost all CSS-based
> > > > sites: If you have a small window size or big font sizes, then the text
> > > > in the menus overlaps with the content.
> > >
> > > I have solved this problem (like w3c.org it has done). Textoverflow is
> > > now hidden.
> >
> > which makes it not more usable, as hidden text can't be read, too
>
> OK. But see above. Nobody has a resolution below 640x480. And there's a CSS
> property (min-width:) which is supported by the most browsers.
>
> > > > We will only change our code if you
> > > > a) show a real-world accessibility problem that cannot be fixed with a
> > > > table based layout (otherwise there is no reason to change a working
> > > > piece of code), and
> > >
> > > See above.
> >
> > Where? if you have no css around? that's no accessibility problem, and
> > textbrowsers cope with our page well, too.
>
> Yes I mean the case if there is no css around. It's not really a problem, but
> I think it makes more sense if there is no site layout when the style sheet
> is disabled.
>
> Have you ever tested the table layout with Netscape 4.5? There are a lot of
> problems. The right menu isn't displayed at all. And there are a lot more
> problems. My CSS draft hasn't these problems. It's more or less ok. There are
> only some background color / image problems because NS 4.5 doesn't support
> them. But the site is usable.
>
> The same with IE 5.0. It has also some layout problems. These problems don't
> exist with the CSS layout.
>
> CSS layout is also ok in IE 6.
>
> > > > b) test your drafts with a much larger number of browsers and fix all
> > > > the bugs that appear. Every code change _will_ break the rendering on
> > > > some browser you have not tested the site with. It takes significant
> > > > effort to get rid of these bugs. Using CSS based layout with too few
> > > > testing has made us look unprofessional in the past, and we don't want
> > > > to repeat this experience.
> > >
> > > I'm aware of this.
> > > Can you give me a list with all browsers that should be supported?
> > > Thanks.
> >
> > Btw., question, too lame to try it: what happens if the middle column is
> > less high than the menu, is the footer still in the right place?
>
> No problem. Footer is still ok. See updated draft:
>
> http://uwolfer.fwo.ch/temp/kdedotorg/
>
> Bye
> urs
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> kde-www mailing list
> kde-www@kde.org
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-www
>
>
>
>
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