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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: [KDE Usability] On the future of the menubar
From:       Jos Poortvliet <jospoortvliet () gmail ! com>
Date:       2010-04-09 10:10:53
Message-ID: t2p5847e5cf1004090310h933055e3p7b86d5f6366e6216 () mail ! gmail ! com
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On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Lydia Pintscher <lydia@kde.org> wrote:
> 2010/4/9 Aurélien Gâteau <agateau@kde.org>:
>> Well, I owe you a longer explanation on this one.
>>
>> First I'd like to state I don't think you intend any harm, and I am
>> convinced you genuinely care for KDE. But the way you interact on this
>> list is starting to get more and more painful to me (and maybe to
>> others?). You have to understand that usability is highly subjective and
>> that you can't convince everybody that your viewpoints are the holy true
>> ones (I certainly have been guilty of that sin as well in the past).
>>
>> Right now it reached the point where everytime you answer a thread I
>> know it's dead because it's going to degenerate into an endless
>> discussion from which nothing good emerges. I could killfile you, but
>> then the whole list would not make much sense anymore, since more than
>> one message out of five on the list comes from you (based on my rolling
>> 3 month archive, you sent 72 messages out of 323 on this list)
>>
>> It also reached the point where I refrain from posting to this list for
>> fear that nothing constructive is going to get out of it.
>>
>> You have to realize that when a thread has stopped with no outcome one
>> month ago, it's over. Trying to revive it is only going to produce more
>> noise.
>>
>> As I said, I am sure you want to help KDE, but right now I don't think
>> that's what you are doing.
>>
>> Aurélien
>
> Well put. And rest assured that this is not just your view. I have
> heard a few people say pretty much exactly the same thing. They have
> just given up on this list already unfortunately.

Agreed, but I would like to add a bit of relativation here. I actually
find it very hard to pinpoint what exactly it is which doesn't seem to
work. Dothan, imho you don't really do much wrong - it's more about
*how much* than *what*. As Aurelien mentioned, most messages come from
you - the too much part. While there is objectivity to be found in the
art of usability, lots of it is rather subjective still. If bringing
arguments once or twice does not convince, there has to be a point
where you'll have to let it rest.

Generally I'd say the issues you point out are valid to some degree,
but often not important enough to warrant the huge thread they result
in. I think a smaller number of more extensively researched posts
would have more effect. Especially if you manage to focus on specific
UI's and give specific proposals for improvement. Imho the discussion
about the eject button DID result in such specific proposals - if only
they would've been in there from the beginning.

Let me put it another way: you often notice something which could be
done better, and start a brainstorm-like topic on this list. The
result is often large discussions and little result. If you would hold
on, work it out a bit more, and post a more extensive analysis,
including playing the devil's advocate yourself (what are the
disadvantages, why should we NOT do it) I think the results could be
far better.

Lastly, while the more overarching nature of most of the discussions
you participate in is certainly interesting and has more potential for
benefit, often focussing on smaller, specific problems is more
effective. Having a specific proposal for a better GUI for KGet (just
an example) would probably have much more chance of being implemented
than changes to the HIG or the lower library parts of KDElibs.

10 of such changes would also make more difference than huge
discussions on small changes to the HIG - after all, how many
developers follow it... ?

Finally, once a good and specific proposal is posted, focus on getting
some consensus on changes - even if you don't personally agree. Try
and get a solution most if not all ppl here like - again, even if it's
not optimal in your opinion. Then you can submit it to the application
developers with the confidence that the whole usability team is behind
you - a powerful argument.

Cheers,
Jos

>
> Cheers
> Lydia
>
> --
> Lydia Pintscher
> Amarok community manager
> kde.org - amarok.kde.org - kubuntu.org
> claimid.com/nightrose
> _______________________________________________
> kde-usability mailing list
> kde-usability@kde.org
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-usability
>
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