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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: stop kate from creating ~ backups by default
From:       Celeste Lyn Paul <celeste () kde ! org>
Date:       2009-06-22 2:02:09
Message-ID: 200906212202.10367.celeste () kde ! org
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In case new people here aren't familiar with the purpose of this list, it is 
not a users list, it is a DEVELOPMENT list. We discuss usability and design 
related issues for the purpose of planning and implementing changes to KDE. 
The purpose is to create a forum for designers and developers to talk about 
conceptual and detailed problems and come to a solution. Brainstorming can and 
often occurs which leads us exploring multiple paths before deciding on a good 
solution.

Occasionally users might post to the list, but this isn't a support channel, 
way to get wishes implemented, or place to gripe about the way stuff works. If 
you are a user, you are better off communicating through one of the user 
community outlets such as kde@kde.org, the user forums, or writing 
wishes/bugs. 

If you don't like that, too bad. That's the way I run the list.

On Sunday 21 June 2009 04:51:43 pm Peter wrote:
> On Sunday 21 June 2009 18:10, Celeste Lyn Paul wrote:
> > For
> > solving the design problem you talk to the developers first to understand
> > the problem. There is no way to understand if the problem is a real
> > problem without gathering the necessary requirements first. Talking to
> > the devs is part of this.
>
> Developers don't know what the user's problem is until the user explains

The user shouldn't need to speak directly to the developers, the designers 
should act as the representative of the user in order to understand and solve 
the problem.

> it. If it is a design problem, the Original Poster (OP) should be referred

If it is a design problem, WHY IN THE WORLD would they be referred to the 
developer's list? 

> to the developer list. We don't deal with design issues here, only
> useability ones.

Are you serious? Separate design from usability? I don't know how you could 
separate the two. Usability is a quality and design is a process. You can't do 
one without the other. We take the name "usability" for the project and 
mailing list because it is the buzzword everyone is familiar with. You could 
say the same about "user experience" which seems to be the hot new term 
everyone wants to use. It's all the same.

> > The question about default is the symptom,
> > but that doesn't mean fixing the default will get rid of the problem.
>
> Maybe not your problem, but the OP clearly knows that turning off the
> recovery files solves _his_ problem. All he wants is to make it the
> default. And this is _his_ thread.

We're not going to customize an application for one user. What we will do is 
investigate the claim to see if there is an underlying problem and solve it to 
best fit the needs of the most users.

> is a copy of the post:
> >I see alot of people get annoyed by kate creating additional files
> >(saving "~" backups of files edited)
> >
> >Is there any studies regarding this?
> >
> >I'd like to make this option turned off by default.
>
> Anything else is off-topic and new threads should be started so everyone
> can clearly see the various topics. Burying three or four discussions in
> one thread isn't useful.
>
> I agree with many comments and suggestions made, I disagree they should be
> discussed on this thread.

Maybe you should write all these rules up because none of us, including the 
moderator, seem to know how to communicate on this mailing list. Oh wait, 
we've seemed to been doing fine up until now.

> > I think it's pretty much established that turning off temp files by
> > default is bad for the user -- why risk data loss?
>
> That's a sweeping statement and has nothing to back it. How kate handles

If I didn't think it would be a huge waste of my time, I'd do a literature 
review for you. But since I've been doing this usability stuff for a long while 
now and am pretty confident in my ability to draw my experiences and empathize 
with the user, you'll have to either take my word for it or not believe me.

> saving files is for the developers to explain, but they have added the
> option, so I'm sure they're satisfied the risk, if any, is minimal.

The option exists, but it is also ON by default. For good reason.

> In any case, it is up to the user to decide what risks they're prepared to
> take with their data. So, what's bad for the user, is up to the user to
> decide, no one else. We can't prescribe these things for users, nor should
> we.

Users don't know what they want until they experience enough of a bad thing to 
know that is what they don't want. It is our responsibility as good designers 
to understand the user well enough to provide what they need so they only need 
to think about getting their work done. Nothing bad should EVER happen to the 
user for as much as we can prevent.

The user is not and cannot be the designer. You need to pick up some Don 
Norman.

> > And so we've been
> > discussing the naming scheme of temp files or adding an option to Dolphin
> > to hide temp files.
>
> Well that is a waste of time. If kate developers did agree to any changes
> in recovery file names, it would be useless as a developer editor because
> all make tools I know recognize ~ files as recovery and clean them
> automatically. Now you're going to break this by having files the
> development tools don't handle.
>
> This is why I say it is necessary to understand the problem, first. The
> impact on changing recovery file names is huge.

No kidding, that's why we're talking about all the options instead of coding 
something and waiting to see what happens.

> > Again, "fixing the default" is short sighted and doesn't solve the core
> > problem.
>
> Maybe not, but that is what the OP is wanting. If you think there is a
> problem to solve, start a new thread, but here the topic is, should kate
> default to suppress recovery files?
>
> My objection here is the original poster raised a legitimate issue and has
> lost control of the thread.  That is unsatisfactory.

Then you're going to be very unhappy on this list because that's the way 
things tend to flow around here.

-- 
Celeste Lyn Paul
KDE Usability Project
usability.kde.org
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