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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: Use of library names (Akonadi, Solid, Nepomuk,
From:       "Robert Knight" <robertknight () gmail ! com>
Date:       2008-06-07 16:27:48
Message-ID: 13ed09c00806070927n6186a607v8b1045bf13069dde () mail ! gmail ! com
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The discussion about names is a very well trodden one and I am not
interested in digging up the extensive debates of the past.

What I do want to emphasize is that it should be possible to perform
the tasks supported by something like Akonadi or Nepomuk without
needing to know what the daemon/library is called.

For example, if I want to backup or restore contact information, I
think it is not helpful if the tool to do that is called "Akonadi Tray
Utility".

> Something descriptive for Akonadi would have like 100 words, not a good idea.

If the purpose of an end-user tool requires 100 words to describe then
that reveals a somewhat more serious problem.  "Akonadi" itself can be
used for a lot of different things but there is no need for the
applications which use it to follow the underlying architecture.

Take the Backup and Restore of contact information for example.  You
could implement that in two ways:

- Create an "Akonadi tool" which does everything related to Akonadi,
one feature of which is backup and restore
- Create a "Backup tool" which helps users to backup/restore/migrate
all of their important information such as settings, personal
information and files.  The backup tool would use Akonadi to do the
PIM part of its remit and other libraries to deal with settings, files
etc.

The difference here is that the first approach is basically putting a
pretty dress on the implementation.  The second approach looks at the
problem from the users' perspective and groups functionality
accordingly.

Regards,
Robert.

2008/6/7 Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com>:
> 2008/6/7 Albert Astals Cid <aacid@kde.org>:
>>> Users don't care about words or names, they avoid things that confuse
>>> them. Avoid, as in "don't use and do not want to learn".
>>
>> Depicting users as idiots that don't want to learn and can't understand
>> options is not a good idea. That's what Gnome decided to do and resulted in
>> incredibily dumbed down programs that noone i know likes.
>
> You make no distinction between "idiot" and "do not want to learn".
> Users are not idiots. Users, however, do not want to learn to use
> their computer. Without disputing the mindset nor actions of the Gnome
> team, who I agree thought too little of their users, KDE should not
> think to much of it's users.
>
>>> > Nepomuk is the big example. No-one understands what it is. Even when you
>>> > are actually tagging in dolphin, you have no clue, you are using nepomuk.
>>> > Which is bad. If you want it to be a bigger success, users should be
>>> > confronted with it.
>>>
>>> No one wants to understand what it is. Users want to tag in their file
>>> manager. They don't want to tag in Dolphin (they don't want to know
>>> that Dolphin is the name of the file manager). They certainly don't
>>> want to know what a Nepomuk is.
>>
>> Again this is not about users but about KDE, we WANT people to know they are
>> using KDE programs, so let's say "KMail" and not "Mailing application"
>> and "Okular" and not "Document viewer"
>
> Kmail is a fine name because it invokes the thought of Email. Okular
> may be a stretch, as Latin-speaking peoples can make the association
> between the name and the idea of viewing something. Maybe my command
> of Latin languages is lacking, but the name Nepomuk means nothing to
> me, rather, it ends with 'muk' which sounds dirty.
>
>>> >> - Users who are not KDE-tech enthusiasts seeing these would be
>>> >> somewhat mystified.  To give an idea of what
>>> >> I mean, imagine how odd it would seem if Apple's next Safari release
>>> >> had an "Enable Squirrelfish" option in its
>>> >> settings to turn JavaScript on/off.
>>> >
>>> > I don't get this point at all. If you want to know, google for it.
>>>
>>> Are you kidding? Users don't google. Users avoid anything that they do
>>> not understand.
>>
>> You seem to really hate users.
>
> No, I really like the 20+ users who I've replaced MS Windows with
> Kubuntu for, and I understand what their difficulties are.
>
>>> >> - Distributors working to get KDE setups ready for schools,
>>> >> businesses, mobile devices etc. will all have to
>>> >> waste time patching software to take these names out and put something
>>> >> more descriptive and obvious in place.
>>> >
>>> > Well great. I guess they adapt more stuff to their customers. If they
>>> > think it should go upstream, they can find us and we can see if that
>>> > fits.
>>>
>>> We should not ignore the problem that has been already identified,
>>> deliberately waiting for users to complain.
>>
>> No, KDE has a very wide audience, while each distro has a much smaller one,
>> there's no ring to rule them all, sorry.
>
> So you are suggesting that it is up to the distros to rename the menus
> and UI. That is a fair argument, and one that I will present in the
> Ubuntu and Fedora Bugzillas (the distros that I use). I expect that
> probably Ubuntu will rename the items, but Fedora will not. Will users
> of distros that have renamed the applications UI not be welcome on KDE
> mailing lists, as they will be using unfamiliar terminology? For that
> matter, does KDE want to promote the fragmentation of terminology in
> use among users?
>
>>> >> - In System Settings there are modules called "Nepomuk" and "Solid".
>>> >> Again, I worry that many users are not going
>>> >> to have a clue what these are.  For quite a while during the 4.0 cycle
>>> >> the sound setup in System Settings was called "Phonon".
>>> >
>>> > It's all about branding. First we create a hype and then we are going to
>>> > deny those words to be used in the interface?
>>>
>>> KDE enthusiasts have heard the branding. Not end users.
>>
>> That's why we have to communicate that branding to end users. Microsoft did a
>> good work here and lots of users think "Internet Explorer" is the only way to
>> get to the internet.
>
> Microsoft's successful branding is the result of the name describing
> what the program does. One explores the internet with IE.
>
> Now tell me that google was successful despite their name. As we both
> know, every rule has the exception, however, don't count on being the
> exception, ever.
>
>>> >>  What I propose
>>> >> is to create some simple guidelines
>>> >
>>> > Obviously I will vote against it.
>>>
>>> Obviously you do not understand users.
>>
>> Or maybe is it you? Tom has been participating a long time in KDE programs
>> widely used by users, sorry, but your name does not feel familiar so in my
>> head Tom's experience and opinion has much more value than yours.
>
> That is a fine point. I then present myself as one who installs
> Kubuntu for his family, friends, and university-mates and have done
> more MS-to-Kubuntu conversions than I have fingers to count them on. I
> don't claim to know it all, but as I am in daily- or weekly- contact
> with these users, and since I am the go-to guy for most (read: all) of
> their computer-related problems, I argue that I have authority to
> suggest what users may or may not want, and what they are likely and
> unlikely to do.
>
>>> >> I am not sure what you could use for Akonadi as its scope is very
>>> >> broad.  "Akonadi Calendaring/Mail/Organisation/Backup/Tea Making" is
>>> >> probably
>>> >> too long for a menu item ;)
>>> >
>>> > Yeah, that's why it is called "Akonadi".
>>>
>>> How about something descriptive? I would post examples but I do not
>>> want to appear cynical.
>>
>> Why did our ancestors invent the "tie" word when you can say "That item of
>> clothing consisting of a strip of cloth tied around the neck"? Just because
>> it's easier to say "tie".
>
> I assume that it is called a "tie" because you _tie_ it around your
> neck. Quite a descriptive name, in my opinion.
>
>> Something descriptive for Akonadi would have like 100 words, not a good idea.
>
> PIM Configuration (for what the user needs it for, at least)?
>
> Dotan Cohen
>
> http://what-is-what.com
> http://gibberish.co.il
> א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-� -ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
>
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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