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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: User plea!
From:       "Dotan Cohen" <dotancohen () gmail ! com>
Date:       2008-06-04 9:42:44
Message-ID: 880dece00806040242x99bd149o8db0e737b714246e () mail ! gmail ! com
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2008/6/4 Aaron J. Seigo <aseigo@kde.org>:
>> I am an end-user, not a developer.
>
> this is a development mailing list.
>
> if people wish to lurk and keep up with stuff, that's great. it's a really cool
> feature of free software that we can all watch.
>
> but if people pop up and start pontificating just because we have open mailing
> lists, guess where that leads us?

You are right, and I apologized.

> i suggest you head over to the linux kernel
> mailing  list, try what you've done here on that list and find out first hand.

I have seen worse on linux-kernel. If you will look back at my
comment, you will see that it was not exaggerated, offensive, nor
rude. And I've apologized for the sarcasm.

> if you enjoy the open nature of kde, actively preserve it.

100%. I appreciate all who work on KDE and I respect the environment
in which they choose to work. I intend to preserve the chosen
environment of those who do the real work here. And I appreciate the
oppourtunity to observe and occasionally put my 2 agarot in. I will
not abuse that privilege. You will notice very few posts by me in the
months that I've subscribed to this list.

>> I didn't see that announcement. I wonder how many other end-users did.
>
> where could we have put it that you would have seen it, read it and then
> remembered it?

Me, specifically, is irrelevant. I do not think that there is a place
where that could have been posted where _all_ KDE users would have
seen it. The occasional misunderstanding is the result. The only other
choice is a borg-like existence.

>> >> It's like hearing that Konqueror would be replaced
>> >> as the default file manager. Oh, wait...
>> >
>> > are you actually trying to have a conversation here? i'm trying to be
>> > patient, but i will stop if the response i get is sarcasm.
>>
>> Yes, I am trying to be productive and to give my input.
>
> this manner of input is as useful to the development process as me leaning
> over my car mechanic's shoulder and giving him advice is to my car getting
> fixed. (i know next to nothing about cars and certainly can't make them; i
> drive them almost every day though)

Well, I've worked 6 years as an auto mechanic, both on street cars and
on competition vehicles. Cars owners are a bit more sarcastic, and a
lot more know-it-all, than I am.

In any case, the comment I closed with was obviously _not_ the input
that I had to give. The preceding sentence was, and here it is:
"""
>> >> That is probably because Kcontrol is seen as such an integrated part
>> >> of KDE that nobody even thought that it might _not_ be ported.
"""

There is end-user perception in that comment, and it is advice well
headed. I have installed Kubuntu on about 20 user's machines, all
converts from Windows, and I encourage them all to communicate with me
about their use of the software.

> this doesn't mean nobody is interested in what users such as yourself have to
> say or are thinking. it's a question of appropriate context and appropriate
> topics.

Thank you. I will keep that in mind.

>> Konqueror is
>> one of the most well-respected components of KDE and replacing it was
>> a WTF for many, many people (from what I've gathered on 40+ mailing
>> lists, /., numerous forums and blogs, etc.).
>
> the true WTF, to use your term, was inventing a story ("konqueror is being
> removed", "konqueror will no longer have attention paid to it.", "they don't
> care about konqueror", "they are dumbing down the interface") by people who
> did zero due dilligence and then *argued* with the developers making these
> decisions that this invented fiction of theirs was the actual, true story.

I'm sorry, I think that you have me confused with somebody else. The
comments that you quote were not said by me. Therefore, I understand
your frustration with me. But it is not me that you are frustrated
with, as it is not me who made those comments. You will see that my
comment:
"""
>> >> It's like hearing that Konqueror would be replaced
>> >> as the default file manager.
"""
is accurate. Konqueror _is_ being replaced as the default file manager.

> konqueror is still there. it still gets work done on it. the file views in
> dolphin were actually written for, and are used today by, konqueror. in fact,
> the guy who wrote them was a guy who wrote/maintained much of konqueror in the
> first place. in fact, he had started writing these new file views before dolphin
> ever showed up on the scene.

I know that.

> as for dolphin introducing a dumbing down, i'll point you to the places model
> and the nepomuk integration for two areas that it has actually kicked things
> *up* a notch. and let's not forget it has a treeview, a konsole view and even
> tabs.

I never said that dolphin is dumbed down. I feel that my current
incarnation of the file manager, d3lphin, is a regression from
Konqueror but it is also a work in progress. What FOSS application
isn't?

> all while konqueror is still there, and still loved.

I never expressed doubt about that.

> and yes, all this has also been said before. i'll bet you've even read it
> somewhere (i've read most of the above on ars technica even), but it's slipped
> through the cracks over time and you don't have a good place to go to
> reference it easily.

I'm more of the /. than arsT crowd, but I have corrected people in
much the sense that you have 'corrected' things that I did not say
now. Shall I grep my /. comments to show you?

> so somehow it's just not getting through or sticking. i'd love to know what to
> improve and in which ways so that we could solve this set of inane problems.

That is what bugzilla is for, and I've posted quite a few bugs there.

> i wonder how many people are aware of how much time and energy we spend
> dealing with these invented fictions of doom?

Aaron, I can only imagine how much time that you've spent writing this
email, debunking things that I've not said. And so that there will be
no mistakes, although as a programmer I cannot spend time working on
KDE, I can donate money. I've donated twice already in 2008. Would you
like the name of my paypal account to see the donations on KDE.org?

> with a supportive community of participants (which does not mean we all have
> to agree on all things) we'd go a lot faster than we do. many of us would also
> be a lot happier in our work. instead we waste energy and wear on morale,
> which means you get less stuff and at a slower pace.

You've wasted your time now debunking things that I did not say. I
_did_ say that Konqueror is being replaced as the _default_ file
manager. What is there to debunk?

> if you are concerned about this, you really ought to get angry at the people
> responsible: your fellow users who invent, create and persist these storms,
> and take action.

And as I've said, I've corrected them in public forum (/.).

> but what action? what do we do about this situation?

Ignore it? Let the non-dev's deal with it? Here's an idea: instead of
wasting your development time on correcting these mistakes, tell me
about them. Seriously. You have my email address. I will take _my_
time and correct the mistakes, so that _your_ time can be spent
developing KDE. Each one of us will contribute what he can. I am
serious. I make it a point to write to one hardware or software
manufacturer a week to demand Linux support as a pet project. This
could be an extension of the same project.

> something that just occurred to me that might be downright awesome (it could
> also be a dismal failure ;): what if there was a "board of advisors" of, from
> and selected by the user community. 10-15 people who are active users with
> time to devote to dredging questions from the user base that are of concern,
> collecting accurate answers to them and then formulating positions that they
> would then communicate in both directions: to the user constituency and the
> devleopers.

Sounds good to me. I will start collecting ideas and present a
suggestion. To where should I make that suggestion?

> because then i could meet with these people online once a month or so and we
> could field the hard questions and open new concepts. in this way i could talk
> to a manageable audience that was actually paying attention and they could
> digest that and form communication for the user base.
>
> the rest of the users could speak to this board of advisors rather than always
> to the developers directly, and the board of advisors likewise could
> communicate to the broader audience.
>
> something ought to change though, because it's seriously wearing me out and we
> have outright lost developers to this insanity.

We will do that. Even if 'we' is just me.

>> I will try to tone down
>> the sarcasm a bit and maintain a professional attitude.
>
> thank you.
>

Take care, and when you get to Haifa, a cold beer is waiting for you.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-� -ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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