On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:37:40 -0600, Matt Rogers wrote: > Hi, > > See http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2000-March/002828.html to find > out what the +1, -1, +0, -0 junk is. :) > > > > On Tuesday 09 November 2004 08:52 am, Richard Smith wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Gustavo: I'm moving the discussion from bugzilla to kopete-devel. As Matt > > said, bugzilla isn't a great place for complex, far-reaching discussions. > > > > I'm using ASF / python-dev voting notation: > > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2000-March/002828.html > > > > On Tuesday 09 November 2004 12:34, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote: > > > To start with icons used. My experience with users and kopete is that > > > users misunderstand some icons, they are: > > > - Settings/Configure Kopete/Accounts: People like to think they > > > contacts go there, since there is a person pictogram. Possible solution: > > > adopt another icon like the kaddressbook one. > > > - Main Window/Add Contact: everyone I know that uses kopete > > > misunderstand that icon the first time and take some time to get used to > > > it. The problem is that the icon is the same as for bookmark and no one > > > seems to understand what the relationship between bookmarks and friends. > > > People using the Crystal iconset often clicks the "Status" icon instead. > > > Possible solution: a user picture with a "+" (plus) sign over it. It > > > could be the icon used in Accounts or even the KDM's default2.png icon or > > > something like that with the "+" over it. > > > - Main Window/Show Offline Users: the icon used now is the one used for > > > searching things. Possible solution: use the same base icon as for "Add > > > Contact", but without the "+" sign and grayed or sleepy face, maybe not > > > gray totaly since it will look like it's disabled. Other solution: a > > > sleeping smiley, but this may looks like the user will be away himself. > > > > +1. If you could provide a list of icons which we should replace, and > > suggest replacements, I'll make the changes. If any icons aren't available, > > we can email kde-artwork to request them. > > > > +1. _I_ have problems with the Add Contact icon and remembering what it does /me too > > > Window Size: seems that the chat window doesn't define a size or define a > > > wrong one. My chat window starts at 200x267 and it doesn't fit anything. > > > > Is this bug #84627? > > > > Probably. The problem then becomes, "What is a good default size for the chat > window?" A minimum size to fit at least one input line + 1 one line message + default toolbar + menubar and that should not be greater than 640x480. > > > Chat Window Toolbar Bloat: after the "bad" icons, this is the biggest > > > source of problems. Users are shocked with the amount of buttons, and the > > > first thing they say (to me) is: "Wow, I'll never understand all these > > > buttons." And they don't need to. > > > > Yes, our chat window toolbar has too many buttons. > > > > > - Format Toolbar: Bold, Italic, Text Color are okay. > > > But underline, background, font chooser, font size, and 4 > > > buttons for alignment is too much! This is almost a KWord KPart! > > > > You're right. Bold, italic and foreground colour are probably the only > > formatting options of those available that are frequently used. > > > > > The best solution IMHO is to split the Format Toolbar in 2: > > > * "Format Toolbar": bold, italic, text color > > > * "Advanced Format Toolbar": background color, font size and > > > alignment (but please group those into just one button). This should be > > > disabled by default, these items are all in menus. > > > > +1. If no-one objects, I'll make this change. > > > > +0. I can see people griping because they don't have all the text options > available. However, since only one of our protocols supports full RTF, I > don't guess it matters now that the Format Toolbar stays hidden. Also, I > think a kconf_update script would have to be written that will hide the > Advanced Format Toolbar when the Format Toolbar is hidden. Ok. > > > - Main Toolbar: > > > * Add Smiley and Animation are okay for sure. Although I don't use > > > them, many people add smileys using the toolbar and the > > > animation effect is desired while the network operation is running. > > > > Yep. > > > > > * Detach and Close are not that used and are available in Menu and > > > in the Tabs, like in konqueror, so they may not go in chat win by > > > default. > > > > Just a note: everything is (or at least should be) available in menus. > > That's no argument for removing something from the toolbar. > > > > However, I *never* use these buttons. +1. > > > > +1 here too. :) > > > * Cut, Copy and Paste: I question these here. There is the > > > (in)famous argument that people are used to the Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V concept, > > > but my argument is other: Instant Messages are used for quick > > > communication and so short messages, probably not even multi > > > line (send on Enter was _requested_ and accepted!), so if one doesn't > > > know the Ctrl+C/V he may type the message again or use the menu. > > > > I use at least paste. -0. > > -0 as well. People who know that Ctrl+Enter allows you to enter a new will > send longer messages. Ok. I proposed a toolbar "Edit" with just these actions, but Richard rejected and it's ok with me... Keep these buttons in main toolbar. > > > > > * Save, Print: I wonder how many save their chats or print them! If > > > you're talking to a special girl or an important talk with your > > > boss/employee, but that's not the common case and these items > > > are in Menu, so no functionality is lost. > > > > +1 on removing Print. +0 on removing Save. > > > > -1 on removing Save. +1 on removing Print. Save is the easiest way to store a > conversation and possible take it with you. I've also used it on occasion. > I've never used Print. Some points: - People that wants to save their conversation can use the history plugin to do it automatically - Occasionally saving a conversation is _occasional_ and doesn't hurt going to menu for that. It'll not be used that much. I agree with Paste since maybe you don't want to use keyboard to paste something and generally we paste too much :) But we don't save that much. > > > Contact List Popup Menu: I think it is too big. > > > - There should be no "Send single message" since it's in Edit menu > > > (not that Edit menu should contain send message, but it's another story). > > > > "Because it's in the menu" is no argument, especially here. People don't > > select a contact then hit the Edit menu. Partly because selecting contacts > > is hard with single-click-to-activate on. -1. > > > > Former ICQ users will still use 'Send Single Message' and it will soon become > the only way to send a message to multiple recipients with ICQ. (Note that > this is not the same as a group chat). -1. Now I see the purpose of Send Single Message. -1 too :) > > > - Move and Copy to should be more explicit: Move to Group and Copy to > > > Group. > > > > +0. > > > > -1. Longer text for the translators, and IMHO, adding the word 'Group' doesn't > add any sort of distinction as to what they do, especially since the menu > that pops out is a list of groups. I like Richard's solution with the "Groups" menu. > > > - Special groups like "Top Level" should be differentiated from user > > > created groups. > > > > In the Move / Copy submenus? Differentiated how? I agree in principle. > > I think Top-Level should be kept at the top of the menu, with a separator > > between it and the other groups. And maybe it should be given an icon (used > > in the menus and in the contact list). In fact, I think all the groups in > > the Move / Copy submenus should use their own icons. > > > > > - Accounts should be under a label "Contacts" or something else, > > > something that make clear you will act on just one contact. > > > > +1 on this. Was going to suggest it myself. I was thinking of maybe: > > > > Contacts> > > Add Contact> > > --- > > Contact 1> > > Contact 2> > > ... > > Contact n> > > > > I think that would reduce clutter quite a bit. > > > > +0. Although i don't like having to move my mouse through to *another* > submenu... At least you have to read less things at once. > > Maybe something similar could be done with the options Move, Copy, Remove > > from Group, Add to Contact List? (put them in a Groups submenu) Not sure > > about this. > > > > > - In usability list is well know that you shouldn't have same icons for > > > different actions. The icon purpose is to find action quickly, but if you > > > have the same icon for "Send Single Message", "Start Chat" and "Send > > > Mail", the same for "Remove from Group" and "Remove Contact", you are > > > just confusing users. > > > > Remove from group shouldn't have the same icon as Remove contact. > > +1 on removing its icon. > > > > As for Send Single Message and Start Chat, +1 on getting non-email-related > > icons for them. > > > > > There's no problem leaving an item without an icon, instead: users will > > > know the less important actions. > > > > > > - Since many users don't understand the Meta Contact concept very well > > > and don't even use it, maybe kopete should offer a customized popup menu > > > for meta contacts with just one contact. > > > > +0. But I think that metacontacts with just one contact should not get too > > much special treatment. They are not different, and users should not think > > of them as being different. > > > > -1. -1. -1. People bitch at me because I want to keep metacontacts with an ICQ > contact we're waiting on authorization for from being moved out of the group > it's in to make my contact list handling easier. We won't special case > metacontacts or contacts. Okay, Okay, Okay! I was too unfortunate with this idea. > > > These special cases are not that good, since the popup will change, but > > > the point is the popup is too big and doesn't make access to often used > > > features fast. > > > > Right-click on the contact icon for fast access. > > > > > There are two many items at the top (Send File, Send Email, Single > > > Message and Sync KABC) that makes users give up on using that menu since > > > they don't find the action, that is in a specific account sub menu. > > > > > > I would like to propose: > > > > > > [ () ] > > > Start Chat... > > > Actions> > > > ----------- > > > Rearrange> > > > Remove Meta Contact > > > Add Sub Contact... <--- "sub contact" is not a good name, I know. > > > Rename Meta Contact > > > [ Sub Contacts ] <--- "sub contacts" is not a good name, I > > > know. gsbarbieri jabber org > > > ... > > > ----------- > > > Properties > > > > > > Where: > > > Actions: > > > Send Single Message... > > > Send File... > > > Send Mail... > > > Sync Addressbook... > > > Rearrange: > > > Move to Group> > > > Copy to Group> > > > Remove from Group > > > Add sub contact: Doesn't ask for protocol there, if there is more > > > than one, ask for it in the add contact window. > > > > Counterproposal: > > > > [MC NAME (Status)] > > Open chat window using default interface preference [1] > > Actions> > > Start Chat > > Send Single Message > > --- > > Send File > > Send Email > > --- > > Sync with Address Book > > > > --- > > Groups> > > Add to Group> > > Move to Group> > > Remove from Group > > Contacts> [2] > > Add Contact> > > --- > > Contact 1> > > Contact 2> > > ... > > Contact n> > > Rename Meta Contact [3] > > Remove Meta Contact [3] > > --- > > Properties > > > > Notes: > > [1] Obviously, a better name than this would be needed. > > [2] If only one contact is in the metacontact, maybe its menu should be > > shown here instead. In this case, I'm not sure what to do with Add Contact. > > [3] We had a provisional agreement that the term "Meta Contact" should not > > appear in the UI since users don't understand it. I think the term > > "contact" is appropriate, since it's what KAB uses. But then what do we > > call what we now call "contacts"? Subcontacts may be "not a good name", but > > I'm struggling to think of something better. > > > > +1 for the counterproposal. +1 I agree. > > > KTip: Kopete should add some ktips with the first being the meta contact > > > concept. > > > > +1. > > -0. An IM program needs a 'Tip of the Day'?!? Also, do you really expect users > to get or care about the meta contact concept? IMHO, unless we word it very > carefully, we'll just end up confusing the user more, at least with that > specific tip. IM program used to be really simple, but then many protocols appeared and good All-in-One programs like kopete. But to easy users life you had to add the "Meta Contact" concept. The KTip could be just a image saying what you can drag the little protocol icons to other contact and a brief explanation. Users tend to look at images and not read things. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri --------------------------------------- Computer Engineer 2001 - UNICAMP GPSL - Grupo Pro Software Livre Cell..: +55 (19) 9165 8010 Jabber: gsbarbieri@jabber.org ICQ#: 17249123 GPG: 0xB640E1A2 @ wwwkeys.pgp.net _______________________________________________ kde-usability mailing list kde-usability@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-usability