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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    RE: OS X style dock
From:       "Jamethiel Knorth" <jamethknorth () hotmail ! com>
Date:       2004-05-01 6:58:40
Message-ID: BAY7-F110KRNZSPGNkY00000abb () hotmail ! com
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>From: Rob H <rob_h_kde@yahoo.co.uk>
>Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 06:36:58 +0100 (BST)
>
>  --- Jamethiel Knorth <jamethknorth@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
> > One of the major differences here is that OS-X has
> > all the other dock
> > behavior. Until KDE has all the other functionality
> > of the dock, this would
> > just be confusing.
> >
> > In OS-X, the dock is essentially your menu of main
> > programs, and it shows
> > which programs are currently running. In KDE, there
> > isn't a very easy way to
> > show programs are running if they don't have
> > windows. The systray can do it,
> > but having every program dump an icon there would
> > get very crowded.
> >
> > If KDE can add something which easily keeps track of
> > which programs are
> > running for the user, then this would be fine, but
> > this is only problematic
> > without that, because the only way you can get back
> > to an old program with
> > no windows is by going to it in the menu, and the
> > only way you can check if
> > that program is still running is in ksysguard. This
> > would mean that a user
> > who wasn't sure if a program was running but wanted
> > it closed would need to
> > either open ksysguard and then forcibly kill it, or
> > re-open it in the menu
> > and then wait a long time while it was loading if it
> > had not actually still
> > been running.
> >
> > Now, if someone could make an indicator of programs
> > which are currently
> > running (place dots beside their names in the menu?
> > put their menu entry in
> > another color?) this change would become feasible.
> > However, that change
> > needs to come before this one.
> >
> > Also, although I don't like this functionality too
> > much, I know some people
> > who do and I can see why they do. It would be neat
> > if KDE could integrate it
> > properly.
> >
>
>I mentioned creating a dock applet that merges the
>functionality of the system tray, task bar, and
>application buttons. This is exactly what the dock in
>OS X is.

This isn't as easy as it sounds. In OS-X, the assumption is that most of 
your applications are in a folder and the common ones are on the dock. In 
KDE, the assumption is that the menu has all your programs. All of them. 
They don't fit on a dock.

I know that solutions can be worked out, but there are problems. For 
example, KDE would develop the problem OS-X has of not having names beside 
icons in the dock area. With a full set of icons and spots for all running 
programs, it simply doesn't fit. OS-X implements having really quick pop-up 
text, but KDE's pop-ups aren't nearly as speedy on many systems.

Bars on the side can be made to include text, but KDE needs to support the 
bar being anywhere, so that isn't a great workaround.

>This assumes that all kde applications live in the
>system tray when running (which would be the case when
>my proposed option is enabled).

This also removes the ability of an application to be 'just in the system 
tray'. I have KGet running. I really don't want it to have as much space as 
any other app. Really, I don't. It doesn't need the space, and I can use the 
space for other things. Putting items in the system tray at the same 
precedence as other applications prevents them from being minor background 
programs.

>You would actually replace the system tray, task bar,
>application buttons with the new applet.

And, in the process, remove a lot of power. Rather than having three 
different states, you would have one. This would be fine if the 
functionality could be easily turned on and off, but since it requires 
programs to fiddle with their menus (for command naming) and behave 
differently, it won't be so easy to keep it that way.

That is possible, but it needs to be perfect. I guarantee you I will NEVER 
use this functionality. If KDE adopted it wholeheartedly and I couldn't 
easily turn it off, I would stop using KDE. If any programs don't properly 
implement switching to the old method, they don't work for me. And, if they 
don't properly implement the new method, they are a little off for you as 
well.

>The fact that only kde applications would support this
>wouldn't necessarily be a huge issue. Keep in mind
>that openoffice 2.0 will probably have a native kde
>port and that the mozilla applications already use
>this functionality on other platforms. Most people
>wouldn't use many other non-kde programs.

But they would use some. Apple has much more control of their platform, so 
they have much better support for such functions. On Linux, the minority of 
addon software will support the functionality, rather than the majority.

>It isn't an issue for small non-kde programs that load
>quickly.

How not?

>I believe this is an opportunity to simpliy the kde
>interface.

At the expense of power, which is par the course for simplification. If it 
can be added as a completely optional addon which I don't have to touch with 
a ten-foot pole, go for it. It does have many uses, but it has many 
drawbacks as well. I think it is a nice option, but that is all.

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