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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: [Bug 77847] Wish: Add 'PDF Format' to 'Save As' and 'Export'
From:       Dik Takken <D.H.J.Takken () phys ! uu ! nl>
Date:       2004-04-18 15:31:46
Message-ID: Pine.OSF.4.58.0404181632470.172888 () ruunat ! phys ! uu ! nl
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> > Sorry, this sort of response really pisses me off. If you expect users
> > to take UNIX/Linux the way it is, you should throw away 90% of the KDE.
> >
> There are two sides to this question.  The UNIX way of doing things is, in
> general, more powerful than using a bloated application like M$ Office.
> But, to use that power you must become a 'power user'.  I don't see that
> having a GUI and doing things the UNIX way are mutually exclusive.

Indeed, they are not mutually exclusive. However, it almost sounds like
you want the GUI to reflect the way things work internally. I agree
that the design philosophy of UNIX is much more beautiful than
Windows' way of doing things, but I say this *only as a programmer*. The
average user does not care about software design, the only thing that
counts for them is usability. That's why GUI and implementation are two
very different things. The implementation should offer maximum 'usability'
to the programmer, while the GUI should offer maximum usability to the
user. From the programmer's view, using the print system to generate a PDF
file is the most practical way to do it. From the user's view, 'save as'
is the most practical way to do it. But we should not need to explain to
the user why you can 'save as' to any format except PDF. The GUI can and
should hide such exceptions and present one single 'save as' interface
that allows the user to save documents to any format, including PDF.


> > You see, the goal of the KDE is to provide an interface into UNIX that
> > is intuitive to humans in stead of computer scientists.
>
> I'm not certain about that.  It could also be to provide a GUI way of doing
> everything without having to use a command line.  This is what it provides
> for me.  I have now gotten used to having the GUI and really notice things
> that are missing such as the fact that I have to resort to the command line
> to GZip a single file.

I think KDE is much more than just a graphical command-line frontend. KDE
can provide a simple looking abstraction of the underlying technology.

> > Most humans have no idea what PDF and Postscript have to do with
> > printing.
>
> I would hope that most Linux users quickly learn that Linux uses PostScript
> to print.

Why? Yes, it's nice when everybody knows that UNIX has had a vector-based
printing system for decades and Windows has not, but what other use does
this knowledge have?

> > Note that I don't say that most computer scientists aren't human but
> > that most humans aren't computer scientists.  :) That's why KDE exists.
> >
> I don't think that it is "computer scientists" that are the issue.  It is
> people that started using a PC with DOS vs. those that started with
> Windows.  I started using an IBM 1401 with punch cards and it didn't do
> PostScript. :-)

KDE is not for people looking for nostalgia. KDE is for people who
believe that modern computers can be much easier to use than IBM 1401's.

> So, what are your thoughts about how to implement this.  Note that this
> must consider that the underlying action is still going to be to use the
> printer queue.

Well, you know my opinion by now: Users should be able to treat PDF files
just like any other file format. So, the PDF format should be added to the
list of supported file formats in the 'save as' dialog. Regarding the
implementation difficulties: Since we would like all applications
that print to have this, we should do this the Linux way (minimal code
duplication). So, maybe this should become a KDE 4 wishlist
item?

Of course, adding a 'export PDF' item to the file menu is an excellent
intermediate solution. By the way, I think the 'Send Fax' option should
also reside in the 'file' menu.

Dik
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