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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: [PATCH] enhancing kicker menu extensions
From:       Alexander Neundorf <neundorf () kde ! org>
Date:       2004-03-16 21:55:19
Message-ID: 200403162255.19994.neundorf () kde ! org
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Uhh, it seems we even get to some constructive discussion. 
How scary ;-)

On Tuesday 16 March 2004 21:37, you wrote:

>  --- 1 ---
> WHAT:     action button
> EXAMPLE:  "send mail" in kmail toolbar,
>           "kmail" program launcher in kicker
> LOOK:     Button
> ON CLICK: Executes an action
> ON HOLD:  ---- (does nothing)
>
>  --- 2 ---
> WHAT:     enhanced action button
> EXAMPLE:  "last" in konqueror toolbar
> LOOK:     Button & Arrow
> ON CLICK: Executes an action
> ON HOLD:  Displays a list of available alternative actions
>
>  --- 3 ---
> WHAT:     action list button
> EXAMPLE:  "bookmark" and "viewmode" actions when
>           put as button in konqueror toolbar.
> LOOK:     Button & Arrow
> ON CLICK: ---- (does nothing)
> ON HOLD:  Displays a menu.
> // OK, this one appears only if one messes with the configuration,
> // but it should be consistent regardless
>
>  --- 4 ---
> WHAT:     Menu Button
> EXAMPLE:  "kmenu" in kicker,
>           bookmark folders in the bookmark toolbar
>           kget menu in konqueror toolbar
> LOOK:     Button & Arrow
> ON CLICK: Shows a Menu
> ON HOLD:  same as ON CLICK
>
> ----------
>
> IMHO buttons of type 3 should be converted to type 4.

Yes, type 3 sounds weird, I never tried/used it.

> > For the case, that there is no obvious default action, the action "show
> > the menu" should be made the default action.
>
> IMHO "show a menu" is not an action. It does not change anything. It merely
> shows you a list of actions you can execute. So the button is not an action
> button, but became a menu button.
>
> > IMO for the user this is ok if he thinks: "this is a button, if I click
> > it, something will happen". This is then true for normal buttons and for
> > the delayed menu buttons. If he thinks the same will happen if he clicks
> > a menu-only button, nothing bad happens, a menu is shown. I see no
> > problem with this behaviour.
>
> I guess it confuses the user, but that is just what happens to myself.
>
> > OTOH if the user thinks (slightly exaggerated ;-): "hey, this looks like
> > the back-button in konqy, so I guess it behaves different from it and
> > won't execute anything when I simply click it. So let's just click it and
> > look at the menu". In this case he'll be surprised that a konsole is
> > started (but that's also no catastrophe).
>
> Well, I am pretty sure he thinks "Hey, this looks like the KMenu/Bookmarks
> Button/Last Accessed Documents Button/...! Now, lets see our options!".

Ok, so this seem to be the points where we disagree due to different personal 
usage.

> > Also for me kicker is a bar containing mostly icons, toolbars are bars
> > containing icons, so to me both are "toolbars", so they should behave the
> > same way as much as reasonable.
>
> To me a toolbar and kicker are completely different, but I think we agree
> on the conclusion: What looks the same should act the same.

Ok :-)

> > > What about making them look like a button?
> >
> > Do you mean raised like a normal dialog push-button ?
> > I'm not sure whether this would look good.
>
> No, I meant to just remove the arrow.

But there should be some marker to indicate that it can do something more than 
just being clicked.

...
> Well, that is not a special but the common case for almost everything on
> kicker: Last Documents, Bookmarks, Printer, KMenu, "Schnellanzeiger",
> Search...

Well, here is our difference again: from these I use the K-menu (and konsole 
sessions)

> > In Windows the Start-button (which shows a menu) is raised and looks like
> > a normal dialog pushbutton.
>
> Hmm, ok. This is a pretty good argument to change the look of type 4
> buttons, instead of the look of type 2 buttons. But should type 4 buttons
> in a toolbar also be raised? I think that will look disturbing. Or do you
> want them to look like type 2 buttons? But that would be inconsistant
> between kicker and the toolbars again.

I don't know, IMO normal raised dialog pushbuttons would actually look ugly. 
Yesterday I played around a bit with gimp and the arrow marker.
There are two issues: the marker must be small in order not to hide too much 
from the icon and the marker must be big enough so that the difference 
between two different markers (an arrow and another new marker) can be easily 
distinuished.
So, I have no concrete solution here except to say "the arrow marker means 
just you can do more with this button than just click it". Hmmm.

> What at least Eclipse (IIRC) and Mozilla Firefox do to distinguish menu
> buttons from enhanced action buttons is that they seperate the arrow from
> the picture and you get the menu only when you click on the arrow. OTOH I
> prefer the KDE Behaviour because you don't accidentally hit the wrong area
> of the button...

Well, and these separate parts are really small and easy to miss with the 
mouse.

Bye
Alex
-- 
Work: alexander.neundorf@jenoptik.com - http://www.jenoptik-los.de
Home: neundorf@kde.org                - http://www.kde.org
      alex@neundorf.net               - http://www.neundorf.net
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