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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: [PATCH] Re: Kicker bar maiming, take Two
From:       Frans Englich <frans.englich () telia ! com>
Date:       2004-01-05 7:22:51
Message-ID: 200401050822.52145.frans.englich () telia ! com
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On Monday 05 January 2004 07:05, Simon Perreault wrote:

> How about simply moving it to "Other multimedia applications" (or whatever
> it is named) instead of removing it altogether?

Give me a reason. Why would the user would kaboodle when there is noatun, 
taking into account the functionality the user wants when using the KMenu. 
The KMenu is too big with no reason! If this change sounds drastic that is 
what it takes. We should take opportunities to cut down and here's a valid 
reason.
Until proven otherwise, ofcourse.

>
> > * rem_most_used.diff
> > Yet another noise catalysator - removes the "Most Used Applications"
> > kmenu section. We have enough of functionality, and bloat in the KMenu.
> > Furthermore, I think that section is not very usable - the user don't
> > orientates after what tool which was used(which we KDE developers in tons
> > of cases do, ask me for examples), but the content - the document. The
> > KMenu does not need "Most Used Applications" but "Recent Documents". The
> > patch tries to be as nonobtrusive as possible, disables the GUI in the
> > KMenu as well as the settings is Panel Configuration but leaves the
> > business logic(dead code paths).
> > It also makes BR #71726 irrelevant.
>
> Not over my dead body! The most you can do is play with defaults.You just
> can't remove a feature someone put a lot of time into coding, other people
> put a lot of time into debugging and 

Sorry, if our decision regarding KDE should surround if people will get upset 
or code removed which people have put tears and bloods into, we are seriously 
screwed. If this is the argument to not remove it, KDE has not as primary 
goal to be a desktop but please developers. An aspect of the open source 
development model taken a little bit too far.
I'm really sorry, I wish I didn't "have" to come with the proposal but if we 
value usability it will be needed. You are ofcourse allowed to maim my work, 
for valid reasons.

> a lot more other people put a lot of
> time into loving.

And this is a whole other thing. Lets rephrase it to "used by the majority of 
the userbase"(which I assume you mean, I just want to make it clear).

You haven't in any way explained /why/ people use it(if), or given any 
indication to how many who uses it. Furthermore, comment also on why my 
arguments to remove it are invalid. When pondering on such things, keep in 
mind that you are a KDE developer(with hacker/technical basis) and are baised 
in this question. When you have provided some hard facts to why it should 
stay, then ponder on the result it will have keeping it(feel free to add your 
own ofcourse):

A: A (yet unknown) amount of users will miss the functionality.
B: Usability will be improved.

Point A will you clarify for, especially in contrast to my explanations to why 
it not will be missed. (point A could be part of B, for the record)

Regarding B, it is quite well established something has to be done about the 
overgrown KMenu and its complexity. We KDE people complain about it 
frequently, practically all reviews since 3.0(don't remember about 2.x) 
mentions it and Relevantive's usability report mentions it too. To emphasize, 
no doubt there's a usability problem and something has to be done about it.

Now, tell me if A is the /most/ important or if it is B. This will not be a 
win-win decision, we will have to compromise. And we do that no matter which 
one we choose, we shall just try to choose one which has the smallest 
negative aspects.


			Frans




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