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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: Kicker bar maiming
From:       Sander Devrieze <s.devrieze () pandora ! be>
Date:       2003-12-21 6:57:20
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Op zondag 21 december 2003 07:04, schreef Frans Englich:
> On Friday 19 December 2003 15:12, Sander Devrieze wrote:
> > > I skimmed that big, rantish thread, fortunately most of it did not
> > > concern the issues I bring up.
> >
> > I think it does :)
>
> No it didn't. Most of it concerned home, trash and cookie alert in
> konqueror and virual desktop/pager in kicker. What you probably ment was
> that it brought up arguments which spoke for keeping the konsole button.

..arguments for the extra KPersonalizer step to be 100% correct. :)

> And since that apparently is not clear why they don't hold, I guess it
> would be suiting with an explanation.
>
> > > Regarding the suggestion in the BR to solve configuration with another
> > > step in KPersonalizer I think is a way to elaborated method to solve a
> > > small issue. If we can't agree on this button issue I rather forget it
> > > than having yet another configuration step for the KDE user.
> >
> > And why would an extra step in KPersonalizer a bad thing?
>
> Because the user rather spends the time doing something with the desktop
> instead of making sure it will be possible doing something(configuring).
> If you look around, we can easily agree that reviews, opinions concerning
> KDE states it is too complex, way to many config options. My patch tries to
> cut down on it and yet another config step in kpersonalizer would just make
> us go backwards.
> I don't know about you, but I don't like configuring.

People hate to configure there desktop in different times, they "love" it if 
they can configure all things at once without the possiblity to forget things 
to configure. This is way I had the idea of an extra KPersonalizer step.

> And I want KDE to be
> tailored so as /little people as possible/ have to configure.

I agree, that's why I think the extra step in KPersonalizer should be optional 
for the user (he may just click next).

<snip>

The beneath arguments are _not mine_; it are arguments that I've already heard 
and which have some clue _IMO_.

> > o simplier user assitence via IM, mailinglists,...: if this button is
<snip>

> > o advanced users needs to put this icon everytime they install KDE by
> > there own in kicker which is very slow: this is why I think the
> > KPersonalizer step is very useful!!
>
> You're missing the big picture - I'm sorry to come with sad news but you
> are suffering from the @kde.org syndrome.

The @kde.org syndrome? Is that infectious? :D

> I am also quite convinced konsole is used by advanced users but are you
> aware how many that play kfouleggs?

So for these people it will be easier to add there KFouleggs icon in Kicker, 
just like for the advanced people.

> Or do you know how many who use kandy?
> Believe it or not, from KDE's total userbase there is more people using all
> those (obscure :) apps than konsole. It is not a question about whether "a
> lot" or "many" use konsole/whatever - it must be compared to the total
> userbase. And if you do that, you will see that the power/advanced users
> are a fraction.

A fraction that could have an option in the KPersonalizer step.

> You can put it in a very simple way: The defaults should be
> tailored to the majority and the minority is the one's who should go
> configuring.
> And if we should follow your logic, we should indeed keep konsole but also
> add kfouleggs, kandy, ktimer, etc , etc since they are "really much"
> used(and actually even more used than konsole).
> As you say yourself, configuring this is really easy, but it is still a
> step to do - isn't it better if the power users(which isn't many) do that
> instead of having the /majority/ adapting and experience the hazzle?

I think the power users (and also other users) likes it much more if they can 
configure all things in a few steps in one time (first time KDE starts) in 
place of configuring smal things in different times after they find the 
courage to change these things that they already bothers them for several 
weeks. (same for other users)

<snip>
> In this /particular/ case, it wouldn't surprise if kicker buttons are
> inefficient compared to other methods, like those described above. I dunno
> if a power/advanced user actually use the kicker buttons much.

I don't know if I'm such a user, but I use it much.

> > o It's not because an old command line interface like MS DOS is not a
> > good think for most users, that modern, userfriendly user interfaces like
> > Bash aren't useful too for them! I'm sure a lot of Linuxnewbies, who
> > migrated from Windows and never used a command line interface before (or
> > not much), will love modern command line interfaces so much that this
> > will be one of the reasons for them to don't switch back to Windows. (ps:
> > I'm such a user) So, IMO it's important that people can reach the CLI
> > fast when the moment is there that they want to use it.
>
> Come on.. That's something of the most far fetched I've heard.. In what way
> would a scripting language be useful when you need to write an essay, check
> your mail or browse the web?

Right, but using commands like emerge, yast, apt-get, apt-cache, urpm, /etc/
init.d/-scripts,... is much easier/faster if you use them via CLI.

> You don't seem to be aware of that you're
> talking about programmers/advanced users.

I am aware that I'm also talking about normal users...

> And bash is definately not user friendly.

I was comparing it with the CLI of MS DOS ;-)

<snip>
> I don't want endless discussions on kde-usability. It is so boring and
> unproductive.

But sometimes it's necessary...

> Do you or anyone else have a reason to why that patch should not be
> commited?

See above: IMO the patch may be commited *if* there's something in 
KPersonalizer like described in my whish report.

- -- 
Mvg, Sander Devrieze.
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