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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: Kicker bar maiming
From:       Frans Englich <frans.englich () telia ! com>
Date:       2003-12-21 6:04:13
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On Friday 19 December 2003 15:12, Sander Devrieze wrote:

> > I skimmed that big, rantish thread, fortunately most of it did not
> > concern the issues I bring up.
>
> I think it does :)

No it didn't. Most of it concerned home, trash and cookie alert in konqueror 
and virual desktop/pager in kicker. What you probably ment was that it 
brought up arguments which spoke for keeping the konsole button. And since 
that apparently is not clear why they don't hold, I guess it would be suiting 
with an explanation.

>
> > Regarding the suggestion in the BR to solve configuration with another
> > step in KPersonalizer I think is a way to elaborated method to solve a
> > small issue. If we can't agree on this button issue I rather forget it
> > than having yet another configuration step for the KDE user.
>
> And why would an extra step in KPersonalizer a bad thing?

Because the user rather spends the time doing something with the desktop 
instead of making sure it will be possible doing something(configuring).
If you look around, we can easily agree that reviews, opinions concerning KDE 
states it is too complex, way to many config options. My patch tries to cut 
down on it and yet another config step in kpersonalizer would just make us go 
backwards.
I don't know about you, but I don't like configuring. And I want KDE to be 
tailored so as /little people as possible/ have to configure.

>
> - -->"Here you can change the icons in your panel based on taks. You can
> also do this later via RMB clicking in your panel. blablabla. *If you're
> not sure about this or are in a hurry, just click next!*"
>
> I think this will helps many users without bothering others...
>
> > I also didn't find any convincing arguments for keeping the konsole
> > button - no one comments on the actual use compared to the total
> > userbase.
>
> o simplier user assitence via IM, mailinglists,...: if this button is
> removed I'm *sure* that the number of questions like "Where do I have to
> enter that command?" will increase much...this makes that 1) the problem is
> solved slower for the user so that his motivation to use Linux will
> decrease more and 2) that the volunteers who helps users will be less
> motivated to help newbies or otherwise they point them in an agressive way
> to a faq which will increase 1) even more

Sorry, I don't buy that. It is not much more work instructing someone to open 
up the KMenu and do a couple of clicks compared to clicking the kicker icon.
Actually, it is ok if it is harder because it will only be harder once, or 
twice - when the user are in the situation you describe. In all other 
cases(which is alot) the user gains from all the argument in my initial 
letter.
Neither your nor my proposed behavior makes things 100% frictionless. But we 
must strive for the solution that gives the least friction(in the big 
picture).


> o advanced users needs to put this icon everytime they install KDE by there
> own in kicker which is very slow: this is why I think the KPersonalizer
> step is very useful!!

You're missing the big picture - I'm sorry to come with sad news but you are 
suffering from the @kde.org syndrome. 
I am also quite convinced konsole is used by advanced users but are you aware 
how many that play kfouleggs? Or do you know how many who use kandy? Believe 
it or not, from KDE's total userbase there is more people using all those 
(obscure :) apps than konsole. It is not a question about whether "a lot" or 
"many" use konsole/whatever - it must be compared to the total userbase. And 
if you do that, you will see that the power/advanced users are a fraction.
You can put it in a very simple way: The defaults should be tailored to the 
majority and the minority is the one's who should go configuring. 
And if we should follow your logic, we should indeed keep konsole but also add 
kfouleggs, kandy, ktimer, etc , etc since they are "really much" used(and 
actually even more used than konsole).
As you say yourself, configuring this is really easy, but it is still a step 
to do - isn't it better if the power users(which isn't many) do that instead 
of having the /majority/ adapting and experience the hazzle?

Since you seem to be personally rather bothered by a removal of a konsole 
button I'll tell you how I do, because Konsole is one of my most used 
apps(second comes KMail): When I need to start a konsole I use the minicli - 
I press alt-F2, writes "ko" and then <enter> since at that point the 
autocompletion have spelled out "konsole". I find that much more convenient 
than reaching for the mouse. But I start konsole very rare because I let 
session management take care of it.
In this /particular/ case, it wouldn't surprise if kicker buttons are 
inefficient compared to other methods, like those described above. I dunno if 
a power/advanced user actually use the kicker buttons much.

> o It's not because an old command line interface like MS DOS is not a good
> think for most users, that modern, userfriendly user interfaces like Bash
> aren't useful too for them! I'm sure a lot of Linuxnewbies, who migrated
> from Windows and never used a command line interface before (or not much),
> will love modern command line interfaces so much that this will be one of
> the reasons for them to don't switch back to Windows. (ps: I'm such a user)
> So, IMO it's important that people can reach the CLI fast when the moment
> is there that they want to use it.

Come on.. That's something of the most far fetched I've heard.. In what way 
would a scripting language be useful when you need to write an essay, check 
your mail or browse the web? You don't seem to be aware of that you're 
talking about programmers/advanced users.
And bash is definately not user friendly.

>
> > Regarding the prefmenu a message says usability reports stated it was
> > often used which I can imagine. But, in relation to the total amount of
> > use of the KDE system or any of the other functionality of the kicker
> > buttons it is not much used. That, combined with the motivation "it saves
> > the user from kcontrol" is actually just a shift of the problem - a too
> > big need for configuration and a grotesque control center. My arguments
> > in my initial mail still holds, IMHO.
> >
> > Sorry if I have missed something obvious, any comments regarding why this
> > patch should not be commited?
>
> See above: the intention is good, but it should be implementend in another
> way IMO.

I don't want endless discussions on kde-usability. It is so boring and 
unproductive. 

Do you or anyone else have a reason to why that patch should not be commited? 


			Frans

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