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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: KDE not ready for the desktop
From:       "Luke Chatburn" <luke () linuxcomment ! com>
Date:       2003-11-25 14:52:14
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Just to deflate this situation somewhat, it is worth pointing out that
desktop users very rarely use faxing. One of the great disadvantages has
always been that people generally need to receive faxes as well, and haven't
provided a unique line to do so. Moreover, if there is a phone line for the
internet which the user has dedicated, they tend to use that for internet
access, at which point, they can't send or receive faxes either.

In general, people who want faxing buy a fax machine, not a computer.

That is not to say that fax facilities aren't useful to a few people, but it
is rare. I do plenty of work for multiple clients, but they just e-mail me
their documents these days, because what they would want to fax is in fact
just a print-out of a document they just produced. As a result, I sent
precisely one fax last year, and an e-mail would have sufficed, except that
the recipient was out of the office.

So, in point of fact, KDE's faxing capabilities do need to be cleaned up, in
usability terms; that's a fair point. At the same time, however, they are
needed by very little of the market indeed, and therefore are not, by any
means a showstopper for KDE on the desktop.

So by all means, let's fix Kfax to your satisfaction, but let's not engage
in extravagent overstatement that it stops KDE being useful on the desktop
(let's remember that Windows < 2000 didn't have built-in faxing, and you
needed a 3rd party app anyway, so does that mean that windows 98 was not
ready for the desktop? I think most would disagree, and KDE and Linux are
now far better than Win98 ever was). btw, for your reference, last week,
lack of good documentation was the reason Linux was not ready for the
desktop, and before that, range of applications, lack of Office
interoperability, bad X servers, etc. Didn't stop a great many Linux boxes
from running on a great many desktops :)

-Luke

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gérard Delafond" <gerard@delafond.org>
To: <kde-usability@mail.kde.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: KDE not ready for the desktop


Le Vendredi 21 Novembre 2003 15:24, Henrique Pinto a écrit :
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Thursday 20 November 2003 23:03, Gérard Delafond wrote:
> > Hi !
> >
> > As an old KDE user, I am sad to say KDE is NOT ready for the desktop.
> >
> > Of course, KDE has many nice features : I love Konqueror, Kcontrol,
> > Konsole, KMail, K3B, KStars, and many others.
> >
> > But what does Joe Desktop User need ? the ability to send and receive
> > faxes easily. and I must say KDE is in a sorry state about faxes.
>
> Interestingly enough, we have fax machines in Brazil.
Hope so !
> Sending faxes through computers is not something normal here (and in other
> parts of the world, I believe).
That's the point.
Sending faxes is not something normal for web server, but it is something
normal for desktop computers. Every cheap scanner is sold with a windows
program to make copies or faxes in 1 click.
The reason why KDE has no good scanning/faxing/receiving functions (when it
has very good functions for other purposes) is that developers think your
way.
> The average "Joe Desktop User" never uses
> faxes. It was superseeded by e-mail messages and other kind of modern data
> transmission techniques.
Many little companies still don't use e-mails.
>
> Having to be configured in order to be able to send fax does not mean that
> KDE is not ready for the desktop. I can show you more than 500 happy
> desktop users of KDE if you could go to Brazil, where I live.
:-)
>
> While I agree with you that there might be space for easier fax
> configuration in KGX systems, I believe your claim that "KDE is not ready
> for the desktop" was near to stupid.
Don't like trolls ? Are the newspapers titles reasonable in Brazil ?
>
> > What are the problems ?
> > First, you must install a fax server (hylafax or efax).
> > I don't know where the programmers found so complicated settings.
> > Especially for hylafax. When you make your configuration (text mode only
> >
> > :-( ), your are prompted for about one hundred silly questions. Anybody
> >
> > knows you cannot send faxes without ansqering to hundreds of questions.
> > Once you have answered to all these questions, you are prompted another
> > time to configure the modem. And guess what ? It is the same questions.
> > Of course, you have absolutely no help. When you give /dev/ttyS0, one
> > tells you that / dev/dev/ttyS0 is not found. So, you give ttyS0 alone.
> > This time, it is accepted. Don't be happy, it won't work. Because ttyS0
> > is a link to tts/0. And symlinks do not work. And nobody tells it to
> > you.
> >
> > Now, your server is configured.
> >
> > Let's try to receive a fax. You must launch a command somewhere. The
> > best is in a start file.
>
> I believe you should talk to the relevant people (the hylafax developers)
> about the above problems.
I was not making a bugreport, because my post leads to about 10 bugreports.
>
> You might be interested in writing another config wizard yourself,
As I told you, I am not a developer. I am better for contributing to KDE
some
other ways. If my post could have been read by a developer, who will think
now enhancing the fax function is a priority, I will have done a good job.
> maybe
> KDE-integrated. I don't believe people won't like that. Anyway, from
> reading what you wrote I believe that there's space for improvements in
> hylafax, contact the right people and consider helping them.
Well, Linux is rich. Hylafax is OK for big companies which make big usage of
faxes, with numerous computers and users, and a sysadmin.
I wanted to use it, as it was the only faxing solution which worked for me
not
blocking the modem for other functions.
I seems it is possible to do the same with efax, which much easier to
configure
>
> > OK, the faxes come in. How will I read them ? Easy, just use kfax. Wrong
> > ! The faxes can be read only by root !
> > What is the good way ? tell to hylafax to send a copy of the faxes to
> > your Mail account. Of course, you need a configured postfix program.
> > Everybody knows Joe User can configure and launch a postfix program.
>
> This sounds like a configuration issue. If not, you may be interested in
> asking the hylafax developers to make that easier.
Not really. Hylafax simply needs a sysadmin.
>
> > Then, you will read your faxes in KMail (in fact, you will only know you
> > have a fax. To read it, you will click on the attachment)
> > One more detail : if your fax is upside-down, it must have several
> > pages. If it has only one, the postscript viewer fails turning it the
> > right way.
>
> Open a bug report about this, and consider attaching a testcase to it.
Right, but I did'nt test it on recent versions. So it could be out of date.
Must verify to add it to my long list of bugreports.
>
> > How will I be warned I have received a fax ? Easy, I just need to
> > configure Korn. Just hope it won't forget its settings at every startup.
> >
> > Well, let's suppose you can receive faxes. Probably you will want to
> > send some.
> > Let's begin with the easy case : you want to send an existing document.
> > You launch KPrinter, choose fax, click on configure, and then you give
> > your name as the sender : "Mr Joe". Dummy ! It won't work. No space
> > allowed in the sender field (of course, no indication, no warning,
> > nothing to prevent you to write the wrong thing, you will discover your
> > mistake reading your log file when the fax sending will fail).
>
> Again, a bug. Open a bug report about this.
Right.
>
> > OK, let's admit you managed to configure your system to send faxes with
> > KDE system.
> > Now, you want to send a paper document. You open your scanner, you
> > launch kooka, and you find no "send fax" button.
> > So, you scan your paper (which option should I choose ? lineart ?, gray
> > ?, which resolution ?) then, click on Print, then choose Fax, and here
> > you go... The fax is horrible. If you choosed lineart, the fax is black
> > and white, but the black is surrounded with a sort of blur. Impossible
> > to read any thin detail.
> > It could be worse. You could have choosen "grey". Your fax would be like
> > on a thin grid. With good eyes and imagination, you will perhaps be able
> > to read some big titles.
>
> A "send fax" button is not something most people would use. The current
> scheme is nice, isn't it?
No
> I can't find a better place for sending faxes
> than the print dialog. (And, please, don't ask for a toolbar button.
> People already complain that toolbars are too clutered.)
No. I just want a big button in the middle of Kooka, as sending faxes is one
of the main functions for scanners (the two other ones are saving pictures
and copying pages).
This button should have several functions :
-Launch scanning with the good settings
-compose the phone number (this number should be entered in a field next to
the button). that way, you just click on "fax" and enter a phone number, and
you can go away : the job will be done alone. No need to wait for the end of
scanning.
There should also need a function for sending a several-pages fax.

The same for copies : Kooka shoule have a one-click-copy button, that way,
the
process of scanning, then printing would be automated.
>
> > You can see sending faxes with your KGX box seems a bit tricky.
> >
> > What should be done to solve this ?
> > -Add a graphical frontend to configure the faxserver. This frontend
> > should explain what the settings are for and take care you don't make
> > mistakes in the syntax
> > -Add a system to warn the user when a fax arrives. This system should
> > lead you to a place where you can read your faxes, with a viewer which
> > works. -Add some features to KOOKA to AUTOMATICALLY make copies or send
> > faxes. With the good settings. And with 1 or 2 clicks, no more.
>
> We'll be more than happy to see your work into making your proposals a
> reality. When should we expect them implemented?
Happy you like the idea. I told you why I am not the guy who will write it
(except if a sort of miracle happens)
>
> > I think when KDE will be able to do what any computer running another
> > system has been able to do for 10 years, KDE will be ready for the
> > desktop (and probably be the best desktop environment) !
>
> KDE is the best desktop environment for years. It was already great at 1.x
> times, 2.x made it the best DE you will ever see.
Of course, KDE is the best desktop environment.
But it will be fully usable as a desktop environment when fax functions will
be enhanced.
Notice if faxes is the last problem, KDE will really be the first good and
complete desktop environment as soon as it is solved. :-))
>
> - --
> Henrique Pinto
Thanks for reading  my long troll/whishlist/bugreport/psychotherapy.

Gerard
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