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List:       kde-promo
Subject:    Re: Promo's support for KDE booth at QtWS 2019
From:       Paul Brown <paul.brown () kde ! org>
Date:       2019-10-23 9:31:03
Message-ID: 2041282.QL7NlZNRGq () rachel
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On miércoles, 23 de octubre de 2019 0:36:16 (CEST) Roman Gilg wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 8:26 PM Paul Brown <paul.brown@kde.org> wrote:
> > Hello Roman,
> > 
> > I will give you that you do seem to be slightly confused about what my job
> > entails and even what Promo is. First off: Paul =/= Promo. That would be
> > presumptuous. I will go one further even: Paul + Ivana =/= Promo. Promo is
> > a whole bunch of people that carry out different tasks. We even have a
> > task about it:
> > 
> > https://phabricator.kde.org/T8258
> > 
> > Secondly neither Ivana nor I are employed as designers, layouters,
> > writers,
> > bloggers, or even event organisers.
> > 
> > We do all those things from time to time, but, for Promo to be
> > sustainable,
> > community members will usually have to take the lead and use us like any
> > other community human resource, a resource that sometimes will be
> > available and sometimes won't. There is much more work to be done in
> > Promo apart from designing, writing, sourcing and laying out stuff.
> > 
> > Which brings me to my final point. It is something I have mentioned
> > before, and please don't take this the wrong way. Again: if you want
> > materials for the event you are attending, the best course of action is
> > to make them yourself... Like everybody else.
> > 
> > Check out the tasks for the Pycon India
> > (https://phabricator.kde.org/T11430), or OpenExpo
> > (https://phabricator.kde.org/T10539), or EduCode (https://
> > phabricator.kde.org/T8122) or, indeed past editions of QtWS. You will see
> > that the people interested in attending these events usually figured
> > stuff out themselves.
> > 
> > Sure Ivana and I have lent a hand when it came to advising on content,
> > editing and proofreading texts, pointing towards designs available,
> > figuring out budgets, etc.. Dropping everything else and creating a
> > complex thing on demand? Not so much.
> > 
> > It is usually up to the person who is in charge of the booth to figure out
> > the details, work on the designs, order the material from providers, pay
> > for it and later charge the e.V.. If this is you, you better get a move
> > on and stop wasting time.
> > 
> > I would like to point out that there is nothing personal in my non-
> > availability to make the flyers. I am just sceptical as to whether it is
> > worth my while to spend time on QtWS at all. I am not saying it isn't. I
> > just haven't seen any data that confirms it is. I have not seen figures,
> > I have not seen any charts that show a growth in the number of
> > developers, companies using KDE technologies, or sponsors after the
> > event. Again, not saying that it has no effect. I just have not seen any
> > evidence of it.
> > 
> > After three years, it gives me a pause, and I feel KDE is better served if
> > I work on pending tasks that have a clearer and more concrete payback. I
> > cannot in good faith go out of my way and put on hold other projects, to
> > work on something that brings no clear gain for KDE,  just because I want
> > to avoid irritating someone. Nope. Not doing that any more.
> > 
> > Just a matter of priorities. I am sure you understand.
> > 
> > Cheers
> > 
> > Paul
> > --
> > Promotion & Communication
> > 
> > www: http://kde.org
> > Mastodon: https://mastodon.technology/@kde
> > Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kde/
> > Twitter: https://twitter.com/kdecommunity
> > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/kde
> 
> Ok, you have made clear that you are not willing to provide us with
> flyers for Qt World Summit 2019 and this is the case although Kai
> asked you for them already two weeks ago and there are still this and
> the next week to go. Mind you that the Promo wiki says:
> 
> "We are always in need of people to represent KDE at conferences,
> local meetings, etc. All you need is a passion for using KDE and the
> right materials. You provide the passion, we'll provide the rest!" [1]

Well... I have been busy. Still am. As I have mentioned elsewhere, you 
should ask someone else. I am not the only person in Promo.

> But apparently that is not the case, or only if you find the event
> worthy. The fact that you even consider Qt World Summit to be unworthy
> and ask us for statistics about its usefulness for KDE (surely while
> knowing that generating such is not feasible in our setting),
> questions your suitability as marketing lead.

Not "marketing lead", but not the point. I do  not follow your reasoning 
though. Are you saying it is wrong to try and work out which activities work 
and which don't? Surely as a developer you run tests on your code and collect 
the  results to optimise your programs and decide what to get rid of, what to 
re-write and what to leave alone.

As for the unfeasibility of collecting data at events... I have clicker on my 
phone that lets me know *how many* people I talk to. I collect as many cards 
as I can so I know *who* I talked to. I lay out expectations of what I want to 
achieve in the task beforehand and compare them with what I achieved 
afterwards in a Postmortem (which I usually publish in the task). I monitor 
news, forums and social media in the lead up, during and after the event to 
see if we made any impact.

All these are objective and feasible ways you can use to measure the success 
(or lack thereof) of our participation in an event. Having some sort of data, 
however partial, helps gauge if the effort was worth it and can help in the 
decision if it is worth repeating the experience or not.

> Additionally the question is why after you being contracted for more
> than two years as our marketing point person you still don't have any
> common marketing material readily available for such events?

We do have plenty of materials but...

> Instead
> Kai had to ask around for getting material from the last few years
> from different people having some stuff saved on their private
> machines. And this material he needed then to modernize with updated
> text and graphics.

Yes, this is usually the case. Stuff gets dated. We can re-use lots of the 
graphical stuff (we re-use logos and images of Konqi and Katie all the time), 
but some stuff is specifically designed for one event or for a certain campaign. 
When that is over, it is seldom useful again. We do hang on to it though, for 
historic reasons and just in case it an be recycled.

> To top this off what material you have is apparently on some private
> cloud instances unavailable to other community or even Promo members.

Not true. it is on share.kde.org, a space provided by KDE sysadmins to keep 
KDE promo stuff.

> You ask for our involvement but don't provide access.

We provide access all the time. We have shared links to the folders multiple 
times and through multiple means. Sure, it is not in the wiki because it is 
not very casual-visitor friendly. But, yeah, the links to the Assets folder 
gets shared nearly on a weekly basis and is peppered throughout many tasks on 
Phabricator.

Many other users of the Promo team also have full read/write access to the 
share folders and can also provide links. I am not the gatekeeper or anything 
like that, if that is what you are implying.

> People are
> questioning this now [2], but there should have been no need to ask
> for this to begin with. And how much is there anyway and how well is
> it organized?

Ah. Not very, to be honest. It is more like a workshop than a filing room- We 
share WIP on there and stuff is scattered around. We do try to keep things in 
order, but you will find some half-finished stuff in there and resources (photos, 
video clips, audio files, clipart) that never made the final cut.

That said, we do keep the source files for  everything we produce, like the 
kdenlive files (and all the assets) for videos, Inkscape files of designs and 
Scribus files (with assets) for brochures and posters. Stuff like that.

As you seemed to have missed it, here is the link again:

https://share.kde.org/s/kMPpqetmXgZopfA

If you think the material within should be replicated somewhere else, please 
be my guest and get it copied, mirrored or whatever. This is another one of 
those low-priority tasks which I probably will never get round to doing.

> Who controls that? Certainly not we community or e.V.
> members since we don't have access.

Sure you do. You just haven't been paying attention to Promo enough and didn't 
read the memo.

> This all raises concerns that the money spent on your contract is not
> a a good investment for the e.V. and I will bring this up in the
> financial working group in the near future.

I'm sure you will have an interesting discussion about the matter.

> Lastly to clarify when I said "Promo" previously I mostly meant you in
> particular Paul, since you denied Kai's request for help two weeks ago
> and since you are the Promo coordinator.

I have made clear that I (me, Paul, not the Promo group) don't have time for 
this at this moment. You can go and ask somebody else. Again: I am not sure 
why you are fixating on me. There are other contributors in Promo.

> Or are you the Promo
> coordinator? Can you confirm that?
> At least other people said they see
> you as such and I do as well.

Sort of, I guess. Yeah, something like that. With no authority over other 
members though.

> But since you spend lots of time on
> arguing what all you are not responsible for maybe that is also the
> case here? So what are you responsible for?

Where to begin?

I am responsible for developing long term communication and promotion 
strategies; developing efficient workflows, policies, procedures and routines 
that allows Promo contributors effectively communicate what KDE is and does to 
the outside world; scheduling announcements so we always have something to 
tell our followers, while at the same time avoiding clashes amongst news 
items; helping community members organize and participate in events, helping 
them figure out targets, logistics and budgets; monitoring social media, 
website statistics, blog and article sentiments, and other sources of metrics 
to establish what works and what doesn't and modify our strategies 
accordingly; creating relationships outside the community to journalists, 
bloggers and influencers to help boost the profiles of KDE; looking for ways to 
promote KDE cheaply and effectively; initiating communication with 
manufacturers to try and convince them to market devices with KDE technology; 
looking for and contacting members of niche sectors (educational boards, 
health providers, artists) to try and stimulate adoption of KDE technologies 
within their sectors; helping projects shape their communications efforts 
(editing their websites, blogs, social media posts, etc.) so they can reach a 
wider audience...

Tell me when you want me to stop.

> Besides not having flyers readily available in the first place being
> an issue,

Yeah, that is an issue. We have been talking about this for some time. 

> if you are the Promo coordinator and if your internal
> organizational task T8258 [3] is somewhat up-to-date then you would
> have had several persons listed there as writers and willing to help
> on events that you could have asked to help us with flyers.

Again: I am no-one to order the volunteers around. If nobody else has helped 
you yet it is because they don't have the bandwidth or the desire. And that is 
their prerogative.

> You will
> now again state why we should have done this ourselves and why this is
> not part of your job, but managing such tasks or doing it yourself is
> exactly what I see as your job.

You would be wrong.

Usually what people do is come in with an idea we can work with: a draft of 
the text, a design, something. Then what happens is that available members of 
Promo work on it as a team alongside with the person or persons who 
asked for help. It is a collaborative effort and usually the person who needs 
the work done, ends up doing most of the work. Mainly because it is usually 
their project and they have the best idea of what they want and ultimately own 
it. When it comes to things like this, Promo is just there to help and tweak 
things so they communicate what you want them to communicate in the most 
effective way possible. But, ultimately, the responsibility for reaching the 
final product falls on the people who brought in the project to begin with.

It is rare for someone to come in and order me *specifically* to dream up a 
flyer, write it, look for resources, lay it out, look for a printer (in 
Germany), get a printing proof, prove it, order the final print, make sure they 
deliver on time so they can pick it up at the Berlin office. That is what you 
were asking for, correct? Who was supposed to pay for this, by the way? Me 
too?

There are businesses that do that sort of thing as a full time job. I do not 
even have a full time contract with KDE for everything else I do.

For the record: My contract is for 30 hours a week, by the way. I have to fit 
everything I do into that. This means I have to set priorities and refuse 
tasks that could derail other more important ones.

I could've led you on, I suppose. I could've said sure, I'll do it. Then, when 
I found I had to inevitably put your task on the backburner until it was too 
late, you would've ended up with nothing and no time to remedy it.

I was honest and told you that, given the deadline and current workload, the 
best way to guarantee this would get done would be if you did it yourself.

I guess it is symptomatic of your frame of mind that you haven't even bothered 
asking what I am currently doing that is stopping me from helping you, and 
whether you could help with that (likely). Helping me may have ended up 
helping you.

Instead, you opted for this.

> CCing the e.V. members list since this is now about your contract with
> the e.V. in general and not only about the flyers anymore.

Sure. Anything I can do to clarify what goes on Promo and the role I carry out 
there, please don't hesitate to ask.

Cheers

Paul
-- 
Promotion & Communication

www: http://kde.org
Mastodon: https://mastodon.technology/@kde
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kde/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/kdecommunity
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/kde



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