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List: kde-pim
Subject: Re: Simplifying Korganizer
From: Olivier Churlaud <olivier () churlaud ! com>
Date: 2017-09-12 9:15:44
Message-ID: 86EA57AE-CD00-4606-98F8-78C4BAA52089 () churlaud ! com
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OK, I was expecting discussion and search for improving the situation.
But if without any other reason than "it is currently like this" no change is even \
thinkable, then let it stay the way it is.
I find it sad, but well, you're on charge.
Regards,
Olivier
Le 12 septembre 2017 08:14:58 GMT+02:00, laurent Montel <montel@kde.org> a écrit :
> Le mardi 12 septembre 2017, 07:54:24 CEST Olivier Churlaud a écrit :
> > Hi,
> >
> > I thought about your answers and I think that the problem is that
> Korganizer
> > adds a level of complexity : Kontact aggregates several applications
> in
> > one. But Korganizer does the same. So if you want to use the journal
> (idem
> > for tasks) you can do: Kontact > Journal or Kontact > Korganizer >
> Journal.
> >
> > I think the second path is not really relevant and quite complex.
> >
> > What if we still used the same code for all apps (as it is now) and
> provide
> > 3 separate entry points (understand executable binaries) :
> Korganizer,
> > Tasks, Journal? Names can change of course.
> >
> > This way a user would now what they are using and what the scope of
> the
> > program is. If a user wants to easily switch between them, Kontact's
> > purposes is exactly that.
> >
> > What do you think?
> Hi,
>
> So people use korganizer as single apps. He doesn"t want to know 3
> differents
> program name for it.
> For sure we will not split korganizer in 3 different apps.
>
> Regards
>
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Olivier
> >
> > Le 4 septembre 2017 05:49:32 GMT+02:00, "Daniel Vrátil"
> <dvratil@kde.org> a
> écrit :
> > > On Sunday, 3 September 2017 23:35:12 CEST Olivier Churlaud wrote:
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > I would like to do a very bold proposition.
> > > >
> > > > To give some context, Korganizer is the KDE application I use the
> > >
> > > most after
> > >
> > > > KMail. And even though, I have trouble to switch between the views
> > >
> > > that are
> > >
> > > > quite mixed :
> > > > - Agenda
> > > > - Month
> > > > - Timeline
> > > > - Tasks
> > > > - Journal
> > > >
> > > > Korganizer's strenght is in the event management : so I imagine a
> > >
> > > calendar,
> > >
> > > > with 3 views:
> > > > - all the events in a list,
> > > > - an agenda (with a focus on a month or a week or a day)
> > > > - timelines (without focus, just endless lines that loads when
> > >
> > > shown, or
> > >
> > > > based on the 3 agenda focus).
> > > >
> > > > First comment here : Month shall be a subset of agenda, which is
> > >
> > > currently
> > >
> > > > not the case, and I find it always strange.
> > >
> > > Agenda has some very special features that make no sense in month
> view
> > > - for
> > > example you can display the day's/week's agenda for each calendar
> next
> > > to each
> > > other, rather than mixed into a single view. This makes no sense in
> > > month
> > > view. So code-wise the separation makes sense. UI-wise, there can be
> > > improvements, e.g. just by having "Day", "Week", "Month" buttons in
> the
> > >
> > > toolbar.
> > >
> > > > Tasks: Now that Zanshin is mature, why do we need to have tasks in
> > > > Korganizer? Zanshin beeing well integrated in Kontact, I would
> remove
> > >
> > > that
> > >
> > > > from korganizer, making it easier to use.
> > >
> > > Zanshin can be a good alternative to Tasks, but it lacks lots of the
> > > funcionality and richness that KOrganizer has for tasks, as Zanshin
> is
> > > designed with certain workflow in mind. I'm fairly sure many people,
> > > especially
> > > in enterprise, would not like that.
> > >
> > > It would also requires Zanshin to become a KDE Applications (it's in
> > > Extragear) and start having regular releases, which is up to Kévin.
> > >
> > > > And what is Journal? I have no answer for this, but I think that a
> > > > specialized application integrated in Korganizer would anyway be
> > >
> > > better.
> > >
> > > Journal is like your diary - you can create journal logs for
> specific
> > > dates.
> > > Useful for meeting logs.
> > >
> > > Why do you think that a dedicated application would be better? UX/UI
> > > wise I'm
> > > pretty sure this could be fixed on KOrganizer level - like not
> showing
> > > event-
> > > only calendars in Journal etc.) Code-wise it would not help at all,
> > > since you
> > > would be recreating lots of the code that KOrganizer already has and
> > > shares
> > > between events, tasks and journals....we want less code to maintain,
> > > not more
> > > ;)
> > >
> > > > This would drastically simplify the toolbar menu, and the
> Korganizer
> > >
> > > code.
> > >
> > > > In term of UX, currently it's hard to know in which view and which
> > >
> > > content
> > >
> > > > we are : events ? journal ? tasks ? are they the same content ?
> well
> > >
> > > if
> > >
> > > > not, being in the same window with the exact same menus is very
> > >
> > > strange for
> > >
> > > > users....
> > >
> > > On one hand, that's the beauty of it: a uniform UI for everything. I
> > > would
> > > hate it if I would have to toggle visible tasks differently than
> > > visible
> > > events just because they would be different applications...
> > >
> > > > What do you think ? If you think it is relevant and a good idea,
> I'm
> > >
> > > ok to
> > >
> > > > do a patch in this direction. But since it would be quite a
> > >
> > > destructive
> > >
> > > > patch, I think we must talk about this. And I'm open to discussion
> > >
> > > and
> > >
> > > > argumentation, if it is possible.
> > >
> > > I would prefer a constructive patch instead :-) Identify the actual
> > > issues and
> > > create solutions for them (e.g. "Remove 'Agenda' from toolbar",
> "Make
> > > 'Day'
> > > and 'Week' actions enabled even if 'Month' is selected", etc.). I'm
> > > sure many
> > > of those issues can be fixed just by having a different KXmlUI rc
> file
> > > for
> > > standalone KOrganizer and for KParts....
> > >
> > >
> > > Dan
> > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Olivier
>
>
> --
> Laurent Montel | laurent.montel@kdab.com | KDE/Qt Senior Software
> Engineer
> KDAB (France) S.A.S., a KDAB Group company Tel. France +33 (0)4 90 84
> 08 53,
> www.kdab.fr KDAB - The Qt, C++ and OpenGL Experts -
> Platform-independent
> software solutions
--
Envoyé de mon appareil Android avec Courriel K-9 Mail. Veuillez excuser ma \
brièveté.
[Attachment #3 (text/html)]
<html><head></head><body>OK, I was expecting discussion and search for improving the \
situation.<br> <br>
But if without any other reason than "it is currently like this" no change \
is even thinkable, then let it stay the way it is.<br> <br>
I find it sad, but well, you're on charge.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Olivier<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">Le 12 septembre 2017 08:14:58 GMT+02:00, \
laurent Montel <montel@kde.org> a écrit :<blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); \
padding-left: 1ex;"> <pre class="k9mail">Le mardi 12 septembre 2017, 07:54:24 CEST \
Olivier Churlaud a écrit :<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: \
0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;"> Hi,<br /> <br \
/> I thought about your answers and I think that the problem is that Korganizer<br /> \
adds a level of complexity : Kontact aggregates several applications in<br /> one. \
But Korganizer does the same. So if you want to use the journal (idem<br /> for \
tasks) you can do: Kontact > Journal or Kontact > Korganizer > Journal.<br \
/> <br /> I think the second path is not really relevant and quite complex.<br /> <br \
/> What if we still used the same code for all apps (as it is now) and provide<br /> \
3 separate entry points (understand executable binaries) : Korganizer,<br /> Tasks, \
Journal? Names can change of course.<br /> <br /> This way a user would now what they \
are using and what the scope of the<br /> program is. If a user wants to easily \
switch between them, Kontact's<br /> purposes is exactly that.<br /> <br /> What do \
you think?<br /></blockquote>Hi,<br /><br />So people use korganizer as single apps. \
He doesn"t want to know 3 differents <br />program name for it.<br />For sure we \
will not split korganizer in 3 different apps.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br \
/><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px \
solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;"> <br /> Cheers,<br /> Olivier<br /> <br /> Le 4 \
septembre 2017 05:49:32 GMT+02:00, "Daniel Vrátil" \
<dvratil@kde.org> a <br /></blockquote>écrit :<br /><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; \
padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; \
border-left: 1px solid #ad7fa8; padding-left: 1ex;">On Sunday, 3 September 2017 \
23:35:12 CEST Olivier Churlaud wrote:<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: \
1ex;"> Hello,<br /> <br /> I would like to do a very bold proposition.<br /> <br /> \
To give some context, Korganizer is the KDE application I use the<br \
/></blockquote><br />most after<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: \
1ex;"> KMail. And even though, I have trouble to switch between the views<br \
/></blockquote><br />that are<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: \
1ex;"> quite mixed :<br /> - Agenda<br /> - Month<br /> - Timeline<br /> - \
Tasks<br /> - Journal<br /> <br /> Korganizer's strenght is in the event management \
: so I imagine a<br /></blockquote><br />calendar,<br /><br /><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; \
padding-left: 1ex;"> with 3 views:<br /> - all the events in a list,<br /> - an \
agenda (with a focus on a month or a week or a day)<br /> - timelines (without \
focus, just endless lines that loads when<br /></blockquote><br />shown, or<br /><br \
/><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px \
solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> based on the 3 agenda focus).<br /> <br /> First \
comment here : Month shall be a subset of agenda, which is<br /></blockquote><br \
/>currently<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex \
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> not the case, and I find \
it always strange.<br /></blockquote><br />Agenda has some very special features that \
make no sense in month view<br />- for<br />example you can display the day's/week's \
agenda for each calendar next<br />to each<br />other, rather than mixed into a \
single view. This makes no sense in<br />month<br />view. So code-wise the separation \
makes sense. UI-wise, there can be<br />improvements, e.g. just by having \
"Day", "Week", "Month" buttons in the<br /><br \
/>toolbar.<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex \
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> Tasks: Now that Zanshin \
is mature, why do we need to have tasks in<br /> Korganizer? Zanshin beeing well \
integrated in Kontact, I would remove<br /></blockquote><br />that<br /><br \
/><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px \
solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> from korganizer, making it easier to use.<br \
/></blockquote><br />Zanshin can be a good alternative to Tasks, but it lacks lots of \
the<br />funcionality and richness that KOrganizer has for tasks, as Zanshin is<br \
/>designed with certain workflow in mind. I'm fairly sure many people,<br \
/>especially<br />in enterprise, would not like that.<br /><br />It would also \
requires Zanshin to become a KDE Applications (it's in<br />Extragear) and start \
having regular releases, which is up to Kévin.<br /><br /><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; \
padding-left: 1ex;"> And what is Journal? I have no answer for this, but I think that \
a<br /> specialized application integrated in Korganizer would anyway be<br \
/></blockquote><br />better.<br /><br />Journal is like your diary - you can create \
journal logs for specific<br />dates.<br />Useful for meeting logs.<br /><br />Why do \
you think that a dedicated application would be better? UX/UI<br />wise I'm<br \
/>pretty sure this could be fixed on KOrganizer level - like not showing<br \
/>event-<br />only calendars in Journal etc.) Code-wise it would not help at all,<br \
/>since you<br />would be recreating lots of the code that KOrganizer already has \
and<br />shares<br />between events, tasks and journals....we want less code to \
maintain,<br />not more<br />;)<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: \
1ex;"> This would drastically simplify the toolbar menu, and the Korganizer<br \
/></blockquote><br />code.<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: \
0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> In term of \
UX, currently it's hard to know in which view and which<br /></blockquote><br \
/>content<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex \
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> we are : events ? journal \
? tasks ? are they the same content ? well<br /></blockquote><br />if<br /><br \
/><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px \
solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> not, being in the same window with the exact same \
menus is very<br /></blockquote><br />strange for<br /><br /><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; \
padding-left: 1ex;"> users....<br /></blockquote><br />On one hand, that's the beauty \
of it: a uniform UI for everything. I<br />would<br />hate it if I would have to \
toggle visible tasks differently than<br />visible<br />events just because they \
would be different applications...<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: \
1ex;"> What do you think ? If you think it is relevant and a good idea, I'm<br \
/></blockquote><br />ok to<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: \
0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> do a patch in \
this direction. But since it would be quite a<br /></blockquote><br />destructive<br \
/><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; \
border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> patch, I think we must talk \
about this. And I'm open to discussion<br /></blockquote><br />and<br /><br \
/><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px \
solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> argumentation, if it is possible.<br \
/></blockquote><br />I would prefer a constructive patch instead :-) Identify the \
actual<br />issues and<br />create solutions for them (e.g. "Remove 'Agenda' \
from toolbar", "Make<br />'Day'<br />and 'Week' actions enabled even if \
'Month' is selected", etc.). I'm<br />sure many<br />of those issues can be \
fixed just by having a different KXmlUI rc file<br />for<br />standalone KOrganizer \
and for KParts....<br /><br /><br />Dan<br /><br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: \
1ex;"> Cheers,<br /> Olivier<br /></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><br \
/></pre></blockquote></div><br>
-- <br>
Envoyé de mon appareil Android avec Courriel K-9 Mail. Veuillez excuser ma \
brièveté.</body></html>
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