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List:       kde-look
Subject:    Re: quit/close was: User Interface Standards
From:       Peter Penz <peter.penz () jk ! uni-linz ! ac ! at>
Date:       1999-09-15 8:59:50
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> I want to stress your own point, think like a user.
> Therefore my statments that an application is the software that owns one or
> more windows would be valid. Try to explain to the girlfriend that
> not one but two applications are running if you click on a jpg in
> konqueror
> 
> Think simple, read on!
:-) That's what I always wanted to say: a user doesn't care how many
applications there are behind a window. So I don't think it's intuitive
to say "this button quits the APPLICATION". I think we agree in this
point.

> > > With this, close closes the document. Exit closes the application.
> > Again the problem: for the user it's not visible how many applications
> > there are.
> 
> Exit closes all windows, therefor _all_ applications. The user would not
> expect that the jpeg view can be closed seperately! So don't. Let the
> application decide when to close the foreign application.
In the current draft we have no 'Exit', so I don't think we should
discuss what exit did/does...

I vote for: it's in the hand of the developer, that the application
quits after closing it's window(s).
You can close a window with:
- X-Button
- Ctrl+Q
- 'Quit' from file-menu.

So a 'Quit' and the X-Button fire the same action. Normally this means
closing one window. Small problem: in X-Window we have no Multiple
Document Interface, but applications like Gimp use more than one window
to "imitate" such a interface. Closing the "main-window" results also in
closing the sub-window (draw-area).

But I don't see a problem here: closing the main-window (X-Button,
Ctrl+Q or 'Quit') results in closing all subwindows. Agree?

IMPORTANT: it only must be predictable what result it has to close a
window with X-Button/Quit.  

> 
> > > Unexplained:
> <snip>
> It seems we agree on those points.
Fine.

> 
> > > Solution:
> > >     The 'X' of a window closes a window, if it is the last window to view a
> > >      document, close document
> > >     if it is the last document, close (exit) program.
> > Try to explain this a beginner - it's to complicated. An X does the same
> > as Quit.
> 
> hmm, it would seem to me that closing a window is not the same as closing a
> whole application with all it's windows and documents.
Again we have this problem with the Multiple Document Interface. With
apps. like Gimp it is no problem: you have a kind of "main-window" and
some "sub-windows" (drawing-areas). Closing a sub-window - no problem.
Closing the main-window - all sub-windows are closed too (the same thing
is done on the Mac - there's also no Exit or something, only a Quit).
Note: I make no difference HOW I closed the window (X-Button = Quit).

The problem are editors with 3 equal looking windows. How many "apps"
are behind them? Depends how you opened the windows (started another
kedit or used "Menu->NewWindow"?). In this case: Quit/X-Button only
closes one window. If the last window is closed, also the appl. is
quited.

Again: don't let's talk about "applications" and their interaction with
Quit. We only see WINDOWS and DOCUMENTS inside them...

> 
> Looking at the software base I am used to (all platforms), for instance photoshop,
> a document can be closed by closing it's window.
Yes! The same action is fired as with Menu->Quit :-) Most people like to
close "photoshop" with the X-Button, others with Menu->Quit. Both are
happy, it's only important that this behaviour is consistent. If
sometimes the X-Button and Quit differ in the result - that would be
terrible... (that would be the same as if Ctrl+C sometimes copys a text,
sometimes (C)reates a document).

I think we agree here too.

> Granted the look of the desktop
> is so that this is intuitive, but I think it is the norm.
> 
> In a situation where I have kword, with 5 documents open, all different text files.
> How dow I close one document. My computer-illiturate-neighbor answered: close that
> window, pointing to the window.
Yes! Correct! That's what I always meant: most people don't think "this
is an application with 5 windows". They see a window with text in it. If
they don't to want that on the screen, they close the window (normally
with the X-Button, but like I said: some people like to use Quit).

> 
> Any research on this?
> 
> > >
> > >     Close a document with the close statement, close all window's which view
> > >     that document. But allways leave one window open, so the application doesn't
> > >     quit. Leave it empty or open a clean document.
> > Again I think this is to complicated and not predictable for the user:
> > if you really offer a Close (=> the app. is able to have a "grey"
> > window), then make all windows grey.
> 
> Now I think about it, you are right. Leave the windows blank. But I think that
> when viewing a document with more then one window and that document is closed
> the extra windows should _still_ be in multiview mode, where you open a document
> and all other windows respond with the same document. This seems concise, and
> the audiance using multiview documents will appriciate this.
This has to be discussed and tested. But I don't think this is a
main-problem of the Close/Quit. Currently we only have to garuanty, that
it's predictable for EVERY user, what a Quit and a Close does.

> > >     Close the application will close all windows, all documents.
> > What is "the application" - the user only see's windows.
> 
> Which is the application.
:-) A developer will say, that this is not always true, but we have to
think from the users point of view. I think we find a common line now:
users who think to know what an application is think WINDOW=APPLICATION.
Like said above: don't make a difference beetween the action fired by
the X-Button and the action fired by Quit.

To 95 % the action fired by X-Button/Quit will be "Close the window
[quit the app. behind]" -- for applications like Gimp it will also close
"subwindows".

> 
> Using small utils, this may cause problems. So make it configurable. But using
> gimp for instance, closing the application (in the button bar, file-> exit/quit)
> closes all the windows owned by the application. And all pictures opened by the
> application.
Yes. I vote for that, too. But I have to put this behaviour in the
standards-page. You're right: that's not so clear in the moment.

> 
> To look at it from the other side, how do you close all windows/documents if you
> opened a sjit-load of windows.
> You close the application which the belong to...
> 
> Right?
If somebody has the time to open 10 editor-windows (File->NewWindow),
I'm sure he'll need more than one hour to edit 10 documents. So: closing
10 windows doesn't need more than 10 seconds :-) 

I'm wondering: Unix is the only OS, where this Exit was invented. The
Mac, Windows, Amiga, ST, ... - no desktop needed that.

--------------

A short summary:
- Close closes the document (NOT window).
  If an app. doesn't support a resulting "grey window"
  => leave Close away from the file-menu.
  Is this ok for you?
- Quit does the same as the X-Button:
  closing the window. It's in the hand of the
  developer to quit the application after closing
  it's window(s).

  Note: if you have an app. like gimp with a
  main-window and several sub-windows => closing
  the main-window results in closing the subwindows.
  (imitation of an Multiple Document Interface).

  Ok?

I discuss about this Close/Quit now about for 2 months - it would be
great, if we could finish it before the 21st century ;-)

Cheers,
Peter

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