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List:       kde-look
Subject:    Re: quit/close was: User Interface Standards
From:       Peter Penz <peter.penz () jk ! uni-linz ! ac ! at>
Date:       1999-09-14 20:38:48
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A short question: after reading the mail I wasn't sure, if you loaded
the latest release of the web-page (Quit (!) & Close). Did you press
RELOAD while loading the file-menu-page (I myself forget to do this
sometimes ;-).

Here my comments:
zander@microweb.nl wrote:
> 
> >
> > CLOSE & EXIT:
> > I read all comments about this topic and think it looses the focus during
> > the last discussions.
> 
> The site confuses me, some terms:
> Window: is a physical window. Can contain one(zero?) or many documents.
Yes. Zero also possible (used in KWord I've heard).

>     More then one window can view a specific document.
Yes.

> Document: Simple; a file such as text, grapgic etc.
Yes.

> Application: An appl. can own one or more windows.
Ok, but one window can also have more than one application behind
(konqueror, KDE2.0,...).

> 
> With this, close closes the document. Exit closes the application.
Again the problem: for the user it's not visible how many applications
there are. I mailed some examples of inconsistence and confusing the
user last week. Again in shortform:
- start kedit, select File->New Window, select Exit
  => both windows close
- start kedit, start another kedit, select Exit
  => one window closes
Try the same with kvt and you'll be surprised... Try other applications
and you'll see, that there's no predictable action for Exit.

> 
> Unexplained:
>     How do you close a window?
X-Button upper right, Ctrl+Q (explained in key-bindings), Quit
(explained in page for file-menu).

>     What happens when you close all documents.
Documents are closed by 'Close' from File => empty (grey...) window like
in KWord. If the application doesn't support such an empty window (e. g.
an editor like KEdit) don't add 'Close' to the file-menu.

>     What happens when you close all windows which contain a document.
The application quits (explained page for file-menu - the X-Button does
the same as Quit - I'll add this comment to the site).

>     What happens when you close all windows (and depending on the answer
>      to the former question, all documents)
All windows closed => application will quit too.

I know this doesn't make it easier for developers, but Reggie said that
it's no problem to find out, how many instances of an application run.
If we don't want to confuse the user, we must stay consistent.

> 
> Solution:
>     The 'X' of a window closes a window, if it is the last window to view a
>      document, close document
>     if it is the last document, close (exit) program.
Try to explain this a beginner - it's to complicated. An X does the same
as Quit.

> 
>     Close a document with the close statement, close all window's which view
>     that document. But allways leave one window open, so the application doesn't
>     quit. Leave it empty or open a clean document.
Again I think this is to complicated and not predictable for the user:
if you really offer a Close (=> the app. is able to have a "grey"
window), then make all windows grey.

> 
>     Close the application will close all windows, all documents.
What is "the application" - the user only see's windows.

> 
> Anyone care to comment on this?
Thanks for your comment! I know this Close/Exit/Quit-thing is much more
complicated than it seems at the first look - I discuss it allready 2
months and it's hard to find a common line.

To all incoming comments: please keep in mind to think like a USER and
not as a developer. I always imagine that I have to explain this
behaviour my girl-friend. If I think she won't asks me "what the hell
are you talking about? I only want to close that window not exit an
application or something!" then the standard is ok ;-)

Thanks!
Peter

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