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List:       kde
Subject:    End of the single vs. double click discussion
From:       "Markus Holzem" <markus () holzem ! de>
Date:       1999-07-09 21:17:11
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This is no start of a discussion, but the end. Just to tell it
on all important lists. If you are not to tired of that subject,
please read it and make up your mind. I started a vote for the
KDE developers, which behaviour they want in the guidelines, so
this will be the ultimate decision.

This is my last response to that or any familiar subject.

Markus
_________________________________________________________________________

> > Exceptions from this rule come (and should be allowed), when there is
> > really nothing to select and selection and action look that similar
> > that the border becomes very narrow - like on hypertext systems.
> Very consistent...

Believe it or not, I have the first questions, why hypertext does
not provide special information on single click and loads the page
on double click... Tell me why!

> [snip]
> he told me that this mostly ended up with learning them how to double
> click. [snip]
> So the single click, revolutionary or not, is just easier for newbies.

I ANY environment you can set the double click time. If you
really are a beginner, set the double click time to suit you.
When you become more experienced you can shorten the time.
For the small movement is to say, that for beginners there
could be a threshold before the "dragging" begins.

Double clicking is part of the interface. Check all KDE
applications and look for the double click actions (whenever
you see a tree or a list it is (nearly) always there.

You need to get used to the double click, if you want to
use the user interface efficiently. Try kfind, try kpm, try
the file open dialog. Tell me how to do it different
and better!

SINGLE CLICK IS ONLY THERE IN KFM AND ON THE DESKTOP!!!
THESE TWO APPLICATIONS STAND OUT AND THEY ARE NON-STANDARD!!!
THEY BEHAVE DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER APPLICATION!!!

It is really hard to keep my temper. Tell me a really
good reason, why the single click is that much better
that it is allowed to break consistency.

Applications are started from kpanel. 95% of users don't
see much sense in using their desktop to manage their
documents. They use filemanagers only as the last option.

AND THEN THIS STUPID THING BEHAVES NON-STANDARD!!!

I feel like praying against walls. You simply don't want
to hear my arguments. What I hear: "It has been long before
decided." "But I like it.". Where are the guidelines and
where is the consistence of this decision?

SIMPLY SAYING "BUT I LIKE IT" IS AGAINST EVERYTHING THAT
I EXPERIENCED. MAKE A GLOBAL VOTE OF KDE USERS WHETHER THEY
WANT TO STICK TO SINGLE CLICK. MS WINDOWS USERS START TO
SWITCH IT OFF (IF THEY KNOW HOW TO DO IT) BECAUSE THEY
HAVE PROBLEMS TO USE IT.

Mouse interaction works partially on a subconscious level.
Users don't think how to use their mouse. They simply do
it. If they have to ask themselves what they are supposed
to do, they are slowed down in their work.

SOFTWARE HAS TO SERVE THE USERS - NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
USERS WANT TO GET THEIR WORK DONE AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.

Why do you think kexplorer is that popular?

> > > buttons. Add enhanced functionality for yourself but don't make it the default
> > > and if it interferes with the standard, make it a non-default configuration
> > > option.
> > 
> > Couldn't have said it better.
> Second this!

WHAT NOW? DO YOU WANT STANDARD DOUBLE CLICK - OR NOT???

Sometimes I really don't know what to make of a response.
I don't know, whether you make the effort to read a mail
and try to understand the arguments.

Go on! Change the file open dialog to single click, forbid
the double click and try to explain to people, why they
have to press that "Open"-button, because the double click
is disabled.

Tell them, why they must not double click on a tree node
but have to move to the [+] mark to expand/collapse the
subtree.

If users want to use the current WIMP interface, they have
to become comfortable with the double click - sooner or
later. Better sooner!!!!

If you want to change it, go on. Design better input devices.
But as long as we stick to the good old windows, icons, menus,
and pointer paradigm we cannot do better.

Single click is fancy, seems easier on the first view, but
is damned stupid if you think it to the bitter and last end.

Take your time. Test KDE, GNOME, MS Windows, any user interface
you can get your hands on and drop the double click. Look which
functionality you can only access by another button on the
toolbar or another option in the context menu and try to get
the task done in 200 milliseconds.

If you find a consistent solution go and apply for a patent.
You'll be a millionaire.

Now a last statement at the end:

Single click for selection and double click for action is the
only sensible solution. If you want it or not. You cannot change
my point of view and if you are honest you must agree. I'll
put the current behaviour in the user interface guidelines, if
the developers vote for it. But if they do, it will be a damn
stupid decision. Sorry for being honest - but I had to say that.

I'll now drop out of this discussion. I cannot see a sense to
continue it. I have probably convinced one or two people but
the others will keep stubborn to their decision. That doesn't
justify the effort.

Markus

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