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List: kde-i18n-doc
Subject: Re: Internationalization
From: Tom Welch <tom () linspire ! com>
Date: 2005-05-21 0:24:16
Message-ID: 428E7FB0.9000206 () linspire ! com
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Thanks for the feedback. Let me respond to a few of your comments for
clarification.
1. I'm not asking for everyone to give up their current translation
efforts and use IRMA. If you want to help out with IRMA feel free
but in no way am I trying to say that IRMA is how everything
should be translated. I'm simply asking for feedback on the tool
and more importantly if people want our translations back.
2. We looked at what had been done already with KDE and, although it
is a lot, was not enough to create complete translations. We
built IRMA to handle things that can't be done easily with
kbabel. IRMA will support docbook, HTML, PO files, desktop
files, xliff files, image files, sound files (things like audio
tutorials), etc.
3. With IRMA anyone with a browser can help out. With kbabel you
have to learn and understand a lot more. We felt to get
participation from our customers we were better off using a browser.
I'm not trying to promote IRMA as much as I'm trying to offer our work
back. But thanks for the feedback. My take away from your comments
were that you think we are re-inventing the wheel, don't like that it is
not open source, feel that you already have QA in place.
Tom
R.F. Pels wrote:
>On Friday 20 May 2005 20.58, Tom Welch wrote:
>
>
>
>>Internationalization of KDE (and for that matter a whole OS) is a very
>>daunting task. It takes a lot of technical knowledge to create the
>>necessary files, maintain translations, etc. We are very interested in
>>ways that we can make this easier for people...specifically those who
>>are not as technical. One of the biggest requests that we at Linspire
>>get for some of the open source projects that we sponsor is for
>>internationalized versions.
>>
>>
>
>KDE translators are aware of that.
>
>
>
>>As part of this process, we have developed a tool that we call IRMA
>><http://irma.linspire.com> (International Resource Management Application).
>>IRMA has a web interface where people can perform translations for us that
>>we can then build into our OS. Behind the scenes of IRMA is a whole slew of
>>tools to import / export data to and from our IRMA database in a variety of
>>formats (PO files, docbook, HTML, desktop files, etc). Currently we have
>>over 1000 translators and almost 60 languages in IRMA. The goal with our
>>tool is to allow a non-programmer to assist in the translations of a package
>>into their language.
>>
>>
>
>KDE has such a tool. And very capable too, I dare to say. And it comes with a
>lot of tools to validate translations. And it has translation memory.
>
>
>
>>Why am I telling you all this? Well, we would love to give as much of
>>the translations back to KDE as possible. I'm interested in peoples
>>feedback on our tool and possibly how we can best keep the translations
>>coming smoothly. What format would you like us to make the submissions
>>in, how can we best help make KDE a much better translated product?
>>
>>
>
>Keep in mind that the following is my personal opinion, not that of any
>translation team.
>
>I'm perfectly OK with Linspire reinventing the wheel. We already have a
>translation tool that works quite well, and as an added bonus, it's open
>source. IRMA is not. Furthermore, if we use KBabel and translate in a more or
>less loose organization as the KDE translation teams do, I don't have to
>agree to some lengthy legal document that is full of intellectual property
>nonsense. It's a simple matter of contacting a translation team, listening to
>what they have to say and where the documentation for creating translations
>is located, read that and begin. No strings attached. No licenses to agree
>with. Last-but-not-least, the status of a translation as we make them today
>is independent on a single entity. If I run into a tree, nothing happens, and
>another translator picks up where I left. IRMA - and possibly the
>translations it contains - is a totally different matter in that respect. Or
>is far less clear in that respect.
>
>Add to that that translation teams generally have their quality control in
>order, and add to that that translation teams generally have translation
>rules and dictionaries specifically tailored to a paricular language, I'd be
>very wary to even recommend switching from KBabel to IRMA as it stands.
>Adding to that I would like to stress the fact that the cost for people with
>a non-permanent connection to the Internet is considerably less when using
>KBabel because it can be used without an Internet connection.
>
>In conclusion, I'd would like to say this. I'm sorry to see funding spent on a
>tool that has the same functionality as KBabel. It runs contrary to the
>age-old adagium 'build on the work of others'. I'd rather see that money go
>into making KBabel a better and more functional tool. That would really help
>the KDE translation teams, make it possible for the less fortunate under us
>to participate in translation and aid pivotal figures in translations in
>performing their duties. Hell, somebody might even start funding them to do
>their work that is so valuable to KDE.
>
>
>
--
* <http://www.linspire.com>
Tom Welch*
Chief Technical Officer
Linspire, Inc.
Work: 858-587-6700 Ext. 254
Cell: 858-829-4614
www.linspire.com <http://www.linspire.com>
tom@linspire.com <mailto:tom@linspire.com>
/*1 CNR a day*/
<http://www.linspire.com/cnr>
/*That's all we ask*/
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Thanks for the feedback. Let me respond to a few of your comments for
clarification.<br>
<ol>
<li>I'm not asking for everyone to give up their current translation
efforts and use IRMA. If you want to help out with IRMA feel free but
in no way am I trying to say that IRMA is how everything should be
translated. I'm simply asking for feedback on the tool and more
importantly if people want our translations back.</li>
<li>We looked at what had been done already with KDE and, although it
is a lot, was not enough to create complete translations. We built
IRMA to handle things that can't be done easily with kbabel. IRMA
will support docbook, HTML, PO files, desktop files, xliff files, image
files, sound files (things like audio tutorials), etc.</li>
<li>With IRMA anyone with a browser can help out. With kbabel you
have to learn and understand a lot more. We felt to get participation
from our customers we were better off using a browser.<br>
</li>
</ol>
I'm not trying to promote IRMA as much as I'm trying to offer our work
back. But thanks for the feedback. My take away from your comments
were that you think we are re-inventing the wheel, don't like that it
is not open source, feel that you already have QA in place.<br>
<br>
Tom<br>
<br>
R.F. Pels wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid200505202252.52426.ruurd@tiscali.nl" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Friday 20 May 2005 20.58, Tom Welch wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Internationalization of KDE (and for that matter a whole OS) is a \
very daunting task. It takes a lot of technical knowledge to create the
necessary files, maintain translations, etc. We are very interested in
ways that we can make this easier for people...specifically those who
are not as technical. One of the biggest requests that we at Linspire
get for some of the open source projects that we sponsor is for
internationalized versions.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
KDE translators are aware of that.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">As part of this process, we have developed a tool that we call IRMA
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" \
href="http://irma.linspire.com"><http://irma.linspire.com></a> (International \
Resource Management Application). IRMA has a web interface where people can perform \
translations for us that we can then build into our OS. Behind the scenes of IRMA is \
a whole slew of tools to import / export data to and from our IRMA database in a \
variety of formats (PO files, docbook, HTML, desktop files, etc). Currently we have
over 1000 translators and almost 60 languages in IRMA. The goal with our
tool is to allow a non-programmer to assist in the translations of a package
into their language.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
KDE has such a tool. And very capable too, I dare to say. And it comes with a
lot of tools to validate translations. And it has translation memory.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Why am I telling you all this? Well, we would love to give as much \
of the translations back to KDE as possible. I'm interested in peoples
feedback on our tool and possibly how we can best keep the translations
coming smoothly. What format would you like us to make the submissions
in, how can we best help make KDE a much better translated product?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Keep in mind that the following is my personal opinion, not that of any
translation team.
I'm perfectly OK with Linspire reinventing the wheel. We already have a
translation tool that works quite well, and as an added bonus, it's open
source. IRMA is not. Furthermore, if we use KBabel and translate in a more or
less loose organization as the KDE translation teams do, I don't have to
agree to some lengthy legal document that is full of intellectual property
nonsense. It's a simple matter of contacting a translation team, listening to
what they have to say and where the documentation for creating translations
is located, read that and begin. No strings attached. No licenses to agree
with. Last-but-not-least, the status of a translation as we make them today
is independent on a single entity. If I run into a tree, nothing happens, and
another translator picks up where I left. IRMA - and possibly the
translations it contains - is a totally different matter in that respect. Or
is far less clear in that respect.
Add to that that translation teams generally have their quality control in
order, and add to that that translation teams generally have translation
rules and dictionaries specifically tailored to a paricular language, I'd be
very wary to even recommend switching from KBabel to IRMA as it stands.
Adding to that I would like to stress the fact that the cost for people with
a non-permanent connection to the Internet is considerably less when using
KBabel because it can be used without an Internet connection.
In conclusion, I'd would like to say this. I'm sorry to see funding spent on a
tool that has the same functionality as KBabel. It runs contrary to the
age-old adagium 'build on the work of others'. I'd rather see that money go
into making KBabel a better and more functional tool. That would really help
the KDE translation teams, make it possible for the less fortunate under us
to participate in translation and aid pivotal figures in translations in
performing their duties. Hell, somebody might even start funding them to do
their work that is so valuable to KDE.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
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Tom Welch</b><br>
</font><font color="#666666"><font size="1" face="Arial, Helv">Chief
Technical Officer<br>
Linspire, Inc.</font><font size="2" face="Arial, Helv"><br>
</font><font size="1" face="Arial, Helv">Work: 858-587-6700
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Cell: 858-829-4614</font></font><font size="1" face="Arial, Helv"
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<a href="http://www.linspire.com">www.linspire.com</a><br>
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