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List: kde-i18n-doc
Subject: Re: Wotm: translations on kde 3.3
From: Diego Iastrubni <elcuco () kdemail ! net>
Date: 2004-07-17 20:03:49
Message-ID: 200407172305.09912.elcuco () kdemail ! net
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ืSaturday 17 July 2004 19:14, ื ืืชื ืขื ืืื Heiko Evermann:
> >Which point am I missing here?
>
> That is an important point. And that is exactly the way the language
> fallback was designed and it works fine.
For mixing strings in an application? I dont mind having applications in
different languages (kmail in Hebrew, konqui in Spanish, and konsole in
German), but I demand that each application will be in one language alone
(or at least the vast majority of it).
Look at this from the translator point of view:
I released an application, since I have tested it, and I have control of how
does it look.
With the current method, someone introduces a new app, and it will be
"translated" even without me checking it's quality. I cannot garantte how
good will it be.
> Here is what I did: I installed kde-i18n/he from head and launched
> kstars. Dialog layout is right-to-left (RTL). Menu is RTL. So it starts
kstars has translation, if I missed some strings, ok, let the user decide
which other language to fall when a string is not found in hebrew.
> Then I thought, OK Heiko, kstars does have a Hebrew kstars.mo. So I took
> it away. Then I still have the RTL layout, the astrocalc tree control is
> in the right hand side, submenus open to the left. And some entries are
> still translated, (albeit less than before...) like chalon chadash (new
> window). As a supporter of language fallback my argumentation goes thus:
now kstars has no translation. I did not check it, and the user should get it
as in the first language that has a po-file.
In your case, I believe Hebrew will be above German, then English.
> <Heiko>
> It is still better to have those standard texts translated, even if no
> kstars.mo was present.
> And for RLT languages I would even argue that having RLT menu and RTL
> screen layout s is still desirable, even if very little is translated.
> Why should that be a problem? When most KDE programs are translated,
> then most KDE programs would have RTL menus and RTL screen layout
> anyway. Wouldn't the old way (to have those programs all in English and
> menu LTR) be even more confusing, as that means that some applications
> have menus RTL and some have LRT?
> </Heiko>
So you get an application in German, with RTL UI.
I think that you are talking you yourself. This sometimes happens when you
have a huge headaches.
Using reversed user interfaces, is sometimes like tying you shoes by looking
in the mirror, or cleaning that spot in the back of your shirt, while looking
in the mirror.
:-)
While we are exchanging bad jokes, maybe you can find a good translation for
this one (I hope you will be able to understand it, it's not hard):
ืืื ืืจืืื ืืฆื ืขืืืื?
ืืืืืจ ืืจืืื ืืฆื ืขืืืื!
> In other words: I guess as a native speaker of Hebrews I would like it
> that way. I have to admit that I am not a native speaker of Hebrews, but
> I like languages and I learned quite some Hebrew to be able to read the
> Old Testament in the original language. And I even switch KDE to
> languages that I know just a little, just for fun. I really think I
> would like it that way.
You got it wrong.
As a user I expect a program to be fully translated. If I see an RTL interface
I expect it to be in Hebrew. If it's LTR, it should be in English.
I understand that the "language fallback issue", but it should happen with 10%
of the strings, not 90%. If you have 90% of untranslated strings, you are in
the wrong language.
I do no expect KDE to test the percentage of translated/untranslated strings,
but if a po-file for that language does not exist, them you KDE should try
the next one as the "base", and then fill it with the ones bellow it.
> Diego was the one to complain about ugly RTL menus in 90% English, 10%
> Hebrew, but that would also have been the situation once you have a
> kstars.mo in Hebrew with only one string translated. Diego, why do you
> think that this is a problem?
The RTL/LTR issues are one of my problems. One of the biggets.
My main issue, is that I decided not to translate some applications, and still
they appear in 10% Hebrew. This can be also Japanese, Chinese, Arabic,
Russian or Yiddish, this is all the same:
the application officially does not have a translation, and yet it displays a
very minimal translation which is inherited from other modules.
> I would really like to have a word from a native speaker of the
> languages that are concerned here. (Hebrew, Arabic, Urdu etc.) How do
> You think about it? Would You really prefer a program all in English
> with layout LTR over a program with "open file" etc translated and
> screen layout RTL (just like all translated programs).
>
> (Diego, as You are part of the Italian translation team, I just assume
> that You are not a native speaker of Hebrew. I hope that I did not
> misjudge that.)
first of all, I was born in Argentina, so if you have mistaken my for the
Spanish team, you could get away cleanly. You missed a little, by about
15.000 km.
second of all, I live in Israel for 15 years, and I spaek Hebrew much better
then Spanish, which is my mother thoung.
third, I am the coordinator of the Hebrew team.
(what I am trying to say is that I qualify as an "RTL" user)
> Summary: I think that even for Hebrew the current solution is absolutely
> correct and an improvement over the way it was before the language
> fallback.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Heiko
--
diego, kde-il translation team
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
Free MS-Office replacement for most platforms
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