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List:       kde-i18n-doc
Subject:    Re: Wotm: translations on kde 3.3
From:       Heiko Evermann <Heiko.Evermann () gmx ! de>
Date:       2004-07-17 19:14:23
Message-ID: 40F97A8F.7010605 () gmx ! de
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Hi everyone, hi Eduard,

>But isn't that exactly what the language setting dialog is for? You select 
>your favourite language and a hierarchy of fallbacks. 
>
>Why is it wrong to let the user decide? I have colleagues who would prefer 
>Polish as a fallback for Upper Sorbian, others would prefer Russian, Czech or 
>German. Basque users living in France might prefer French as a fallback, 
>those living in Spain might prefer Spanish. Friesian users might prefer 
>individually nds, nl or de as fallbacks.
>
>Which point am I missing here?
>
That is an important point. And that is exactly the way the language 
fallback was designed and it works fine.

I have had a look at Hebrews as that was specifically mentioned. I had 
misunderstood the first post about Hebrew. I had understood that the 
English texts were displayed in reverse. But the only thing that gets 
reversed is the screen layout.

Here is what I did: I installed kde-i18n/he from head and launched 
kstars. Dialog layout is right-to-left (RTL). Menu is RTL. So it starts 
from right with the file menu. It is a bit difficult when you only have 
a limited knowledge of Hebrew, but you can make your way when you know 
the program. There is a module called astro calculator with a tree 
control that offers different calculation modules. The tree control is 
on the right hand side when you start kstars in Hebrew. (In English or 
German it is on the left hand side.) The main menu opens downwards, 
submenus then open to the left. All is as it is expected. Some strings 
are in Hebrew and some are in English, as the program is not translated 
completely.

Then I thought, OK Heiko, kstars does have a Hebrew kstars.mo. So I took 
it away. Then I still have the RTL layout, the astrocalc tree control is 
in the right hand side, submenus open to the left. And some entries are 
still translated, (albeit less than before...) like chalon chadash (new 
window). As a supporter of language fallback my argumentation goes thus:

<Heiko>
It is still better to have those standard texts translated, even if no 
kstars.mo was present.
And for RLT languages I would even argue that having RLT menu and RTL 
screen layout s is still desirable, even if very little is translated. 
Why should that be a problem? When most KDE programs are translated, 
then most KDE programs would have RTL menus and RTL screen layout 
anyway. Wouldn't the old way (to have those programs all in English and 
menu LTR) be even more confusing, as that means that some applications 
have menus RTL and some have LRT?
</Heiko>

In other words: I guess as a native speaker of Hebrews I would like it 
that way. I have to admit that I am not a native speaker of Hebrews, but 
I like languages and I learned quite some Hebrew to be able to read the 
Old Testament in the original language. And I even switch KDE to 
languages that I know just a little, just for fun. I really think I 
would like it that way.

Diego was the one to complain about ugly RTL menus in 90% English, 10% 
Hebrew, but that would also have been the situation once you have a 
kstars.mo in Hebrew with only one string translated. Diego, why do you 
think that this is a problem?

I would really like to have a word from a native speaker of the 
languages that are concerned here. (Hebrew, Arabic, Urdu etc.) How do 
You think about it? Would You really prefer a  program all in English 
with layout LTR over a program with "open file" etc translated and 
screen layout RTL (just like all translated programs).

(Diego, as You are part of the Italian translation team, I just assume 
that You are not a native speaker of Hebrew. I hope that I did not 
misjudge that.)

Summary: I think that even for Hebrew the current solution is absolutely 
correct and an improvement over the way it was before the language fallback.

Kind regards,

Heiko

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