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List:       kde-edu-devel
Subject:    Re: Aw: Re: LabPlot - Cannot print or export
From:       Stefan Gerlach <stefan.gerlach () uni-konstanz ! de>
Date:       2021-01-06 17:04:01
Message-ID: 8634ccec-9074-2103-a733-ac2e700c924f () uni-konstanz ! de
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Hi Bill,
> I always always always test new stuff on a virtual machine before letting it onto \
> my main systems.  If it blows up, I can revert to a snapshot.   On a real computer, \
> if it blows up I often have to rebuild from the metal.  It is a risk not worth \
> taking, and a problem that has bitten me many  times.  It is a lesson I learned the \
> hard way.

Flatpaks are installed as user in a single directory. You are totally save when using \
a different user account.

> The main issued I found with the flatpak for LabPlot is that it does not save files \
> where I expect it to.  I specified "/home/bgee/Documents" as  the directory.  \
> LabPlot reports success.  If I save the file again, LabPlot reports that the file \
> is already there.  However, I cannot see the  file with any other program!  Bash, \
> Krusader, Dolphin ...  None of them see the files I saved out of LabPlot.  In my \
> mind that is reason enough  to not use the flatpak.

I will take a look. Nobody else complained so it may be a problem of Fedora only.

> There may also be problems with themes, icons, fonts etc.  I did not test for that. \
> The Z-order problem with file-open and file-save dialogs is  very annoying but not \
> quite a show stopper

It's the first version that we packed as Flatpak and there are still some edges :-)

> As a general philosophy, I still think that flatpaks, snaps and containers are \
> imperfect solutions for which no problem exists.  Let's assume,  for example, that \
> I choose to run EVERY application I use as a flatpak.  That means Firefox, \
> LibreOffice, KMail, KOrganizer, KeePassXC, Audacity  et.al.  Each of them brings in \
> and launches a complete version of KDE.  None of them is running in the same \
> sandbox, so they cannot see each  other and use each other's services.  If, for \
> example, I click on a KMail attachment to open it, does Gwenview open in the same \
> sandbox as  KMail?  If I click on an image in Firefox, does it open the same \
> Gwenview instance as the one that KMail launched?  If I click on an email  address \
> in Firefox, does that launch a new instance of KMail or does it use the sandbox \
> that is already running?

Flatpaks are normally only an extension of a full distribution. There are of course \
basic runtimes (like a KDE installation) and communication  methods that can be used \
by different Flatpak applications. I'm not a Flatpak expert but it should be easy to \
select the system or the flatpak  version of a package when needed.

> KeePassXC connects into Firefox to provide password filling.  If they are running \
> in separate sandboxes, then how are they to talk to each  other?  If I make a \
> settings change in the KDE System Settings application, how does that get inside \
> all the different KDE sandboxes?

There are common settings when all KDE apps use the same runtime. You can have \
different runtimes (versions of KDE), so this may be a problem.

> I understand the problems with "DLL Hell", or its equivalent in Linux.  I made a \
> good living for many years doing Windows tech support.  I think  that flatpaks, \
> snaps and containers are an interesting attempt to solve that problem.  However, \
> the only result has been to change the  appearance.  It is not gone - it just looks \
> different.

"DLL Hell" was caused by every app providing own libraries but did not use a sandbox. \
This is not a problem in a Linux distribution or in Flatpak. We encourage all \
distributions to provide packages for LabPlot but the latest version on most \
distributions is only available via Flatpak (when  not compiling it yourself). The \
download numbers are quite high so many users seem to appreciate it.

> I am - and remain - a committed contrary curmudgeon!  :-)  I think the real answer \
> is to find a Fedora packager and ask them to create a  repository package for \
> LabPlot 2.8.1.

We are working on that :-)

best regards,
Stefan

> 
> On Wednesday, January 6, 2021 4:38:15 AM CST Stefan Gerlach wrote:
> 
> > Hi Bill,
> 
> > 
> 
> > i maintain the Flatpak package, so i can hopefully give some answers.
> 
> > Flatpak is installing a package inside a sandbox. You don't need a VM to test it. \
> > It only needs a few system libraries. The advantage is that
> 
> > you can run the same package on many different systems. The disadvantage is that \
> > it brings all libraries it needs (Qt, KDE, etc. in our case),
> 
> > but several apps can use this so called runtime environment.
> 
> > I can check on Fedora if there are problems due to LabPlot running in the Flatpak \
> > sandbox. The Z-order or theme problems may also be related to
> 
> > Flatpak settings or missing configuration files. We can check this.
> 
> > 
> 
> > best
> 
> > Stefan
> 
> > 
> 
> > On 05/01/2021 02:33, Bill Gee wrote:
> 
> > > Hi Alexander -
> 
> > > 
> 
> > > 
> 


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