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List: kde-edu-devel
Subject: Re: Aw: Re: LabPlot - Cannot print or export
From: Bill Gee <bgee () campercaver ! net>
Date: 2021-01-06 13:05:43
Message-ID: 4309490.cEBGB3zze1 () main2 ! billgee ! local
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Hi Stefan -
I always always always test new stuff on a virtual machine before letting it onto my \
main systems. If it blows up, I can revert to a snapshot. On a real computer, if it \
blows up I often have to rebuild from the metal. It is a risk not worth taking, and \
a problem that has bitten me many times. It is a lesson I learned the hard way.
The main issued I found with the flatpak for LabPlot is that it does not save files \
where I expect it to. I specified "/home/bgee/Documents" as the directory. LabPlot \
reports success. If I save the file again, LabPlot reports that the file is already \
there. However, I cannot see the file with any other program! Bash, Krusader, \
Dolphin ... None of them see the files I saved out of LabPlot. In my mind that is \
reason enough to not use the flatpak.
There may also be problems with themes, icons, fonts etc. I did not test for that. \
The Z-order problem with file-open and file-save dialogs is very annoying but not \
quite a show stopper.
As a general philosophy, I still think that flatpaks, snaps and containers are \
imperfect solutions for which no problem exists. Let's assume, for example, that I \
choose to run EVERY application I use as a flatpak. That means Firefox, LibreOffice, \
KMail, KOrganizer, KeePassXC, Audacity et.al. Each of them brings in and launches a \
complete version of KDE. None of them is running in the same sandbox, so they cannot \
see each other and use each other's services. If, for example, I click on a KMail \
attachment to open it, does Gwenview open in the same sandbox as KMail? If I click \
on an image in Firefox, does it open the same Gwenview instance as the one that KMail \
launched? If I click on an email address in Firefox, does that launch a new instance \
of KMail or does it use the sandbox that is already running?
KeePassXC connects into Firefox to provide password filling. If they are running in \
separate sandboxes, then how are they to talk to each other? If I make a settings \
change in the KDE System Settings application, how does that get inside all the \
different KDE sandboxes?
And if all those applications DO run in the same sandbox, then what's the gain? Why \
not run them in the real environment and save a huge amount of both memory and drive \
space?
I understand the problems with "DLL Hell", or its equivalent in Linux. I made a good \
living for many years doing Windows tech support. I think that flatpaks, snaps and \
containers are an interesting attempt to solve that problem. However, the only \
result has been to change the appearance. It is not gone - it just looks different.
I am - and remain - a committed contrary curmudgeon! :-) I think the real answer is \
to find a Fedora packager and ask them to create a repository package for LabPlot \
2.8.1.
Thanks, and regards -
--
Bill Gee
On Wednesday, January 6, 2021 4:38:15 AM CST Stefan Gerlach wrote:
> Hi Bill,
>
> i maintain the Flatpak package, so i can hopefully give some answers.
> Flatpak is installing a package inside a sandbox. You don't need a VM to test it. \
> It only needs a few system libraries. The advantage is that you can run the same \
> package on many different systems. The disadvantage is that it brings all libraries \
> it needs (Qt, KDE, etc. in our case), but several apps can use this so called \
> runtime environment. I can check on Fedora if there are problems due to LabPlot \
> running in the Flatpak sandbox. The Z-order or theme problems may also be related \
> to Flatpak settings or missing configuration files. We can check this.
>
> best
> Stefan
>
> On 05/01/2021 02:33, Bill Gee wrote:
> > Hi Alexander -
> >
> >
[Attachment #3 (unknown)]
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<body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;"><span \
style="font-size:0.92em;">Hi Stefan -</span></p> <br /><p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">I always always \
always test new stuff on a virtual machine before letting it onto my main \
systems. If it blows up, I can revert to a snapshot. On a real computer, \
if it blows up I often have to rebuild from the metal. It is a risk not worth \
taking, and a problem that has bitten me many times. It is a lesson I learned \
the hard way.</p> <br /><p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">The main issued I \
found with the flatpak for LabPlot is that it does not save files where I expect it \
to. I specified "/home/bgee/Documents" as the directory. \
LabPlot reports success. If I save the file again, LabPlot reports that the \
file is already there. However, I cannot see the file with any other \
program! Bash, Krusader, Dolphin ... None of them see the files I saved \
out of LabPlot. In my mind that is reason enough to not use the flatpak.</p> \
<br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">There may \
also be problems with themes, icons, fonts etc. I did not test for that. \
The Z-order problem with file-open and file-save dialogs is very annoying but not \
quite a show stopper.</p> <br /><p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">As a general \
philosophy, I still think that flatpaks, snaps and containers are imperfect solutions \
for which no problem exists. Let's assume, for example, that I choose to run \
EVERY application I use as a flatpak. That means Firefox, LibreOffice, KMail, \
KOrganizer, KeePassXC, Audacity et.al. Each of them brings in and launches a \
complete version of KDE. None of them is running in the same sandbox, so they \
cannot see each other and use each other's services. If, for example, I click \
on a KMail attachment to open it, does Gwenview open in the same sandbox as \
KMail? If I click on an image in Firefox, does it open the same Gwenview \
instance as the one that KMail launched? If I click on an email address in \
Firefox, does that launch a new instance of KMail or does it use the sandbox that is \
already running?</p> <br /><p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">KeePassXC connects \
into Firefox to provide password filling. If they are running in separate \
sandboxes, then how are they to talk to each other? If I make a settings change \
in the KDE System Settings application, how does that get inside all the different \
KDE sandboxes?</p> <br /><p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">And if all those \
applications DO run in the same sandbox, then what's the gain? Why not run them \
in the real environment and save a huge amount of both memory and drive space?</p> \
<br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">I \
understand the problems with "DLL Hell", or its equivalent in Linux. \
I made a good living for many years doing Windows tech support. I think that \
flatpaks, snaps and containers are an interesting attempt to solve that \
problem. However, the only result has been to change the appearance. It \
is not gone - it just looks different.</p> <br /><p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">I am - and remain \
- a committed contrary curmudgeon! :-) I think the real answer is to find \
a Fedora packager and ask them to create a repository package for LabPlot 2.8.1.</p> \
<p> </p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">Thanks, \
and regards - </p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;"><br />-- </p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">Bill Gee</p> <br \
/><br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;"><br \
/>On Wednesday, January 6, 2021 4:38:15 AM CST Stefan Gerlach wrote:</p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> Hi Bill,</p> \
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> </p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> i maintain \
the Flatpak package, so i can hopefully give some answers.</p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> Flatpak is \
installing a package inside a sandbox. You don't need a VM to test it. It only needs \
a few system libraries. The advantage is that </p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> you can run \
the same package on many different systems. The disadvantage is that it brings all \
libraries it needs (Qt, KDE, etc. in our case), </p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> but several \
apps can use this so called runtime environment.</p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> I can check \
on Fedora if there are problems due to LabPlot running in the Flatpak sandbox. The \
Z-order or theme problems may also be related to </p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> Flatpak \
settings or missing configuration files. We can check this.</p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> </p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> best</p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> Stefan</p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> </p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> On 05/01/2021 \
02:33, Bill Gee wrote:</p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> > Hi \
Alexander -</p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> \
> </p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> \
> </p> </body>
</html>
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