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List: kde-edu-devel
Subject: Re: Aw: Re: LabPlot - Cannot print or export
From: Bill Gee <bgee () campercaver ! net>
Date: 2021-01-06 13:05:43
Message-ID: 4309490.cEBGB3zze1 () main2 ! billgee ! local
[Download RAW message or body]
Hi Stefan -
I always always always test new stuff on a virtual machine before letting \
it onto my main systems. If it blows up, I can revert to a snapshot. On a \
real computer, if it blows up I often have to rebuild from the metal. It \
is a risk not worth taking, and a problem that has bitten me many times. \
It is a lesson I learned the hard way.
The main issued I found with the flatpak for LabPlot is that it does not \
save files where I expect it to. I specified "/home/bgee/Documents" as the \
directory. LabPlot reports success. If I save the file again, LabPlot \
reports that the file is already there. However, I cannot see the file \
with any other program! Bash, Krusader, Dolphin ... None of them see the \
files I saved out of LabPlot. In my mind that is reason enough to not use \
the flatpak.
There may also be problems with themes, icons, fonts etc. I did not test \
for that. The Z-order problem with file-open and file-save dialogs is very \
annoying but not quite a show stopper.
As a general philosophy, I still think that flatpaks, snaps and containers \
are imperfect solutions for which no problem exists. Let's assume, for \
example, that I choose to run EVERY application I use as a flatpak. That \
means Firefox, LibreOffice, KMail, KOrganizer, KeePassXC, Audacity et.al. \
Each of them brings in and launches a complete version of KDE. None of \
them is running in the same sandbox, so they cannot see each other and use \
each other's services. If, for example, I click on a KMail attachment to \
open it, does Gwenview open in the same sandbox as KMail? If I click on an \
image in Firefox, does it open the same Gwenview instance as the one that \
KMail launched? If I click on an email address in Firefox, does that \
launch a new instance of KMail or does it use the sandbox that is already \
running?
KeePassXC connects into Firefox to provide password filling. If they are \
running in separate sandboxes, then how are they to talk to each other? If \
I make a settings change in the KDE System Settings application, how does \
that get inside all the different KDE sandboxes?
And if all those applications DO run in the same sandbox, then what's the \
gain? Why not run them in the real environment and save a huge amount of \
both memory and drive space?
I understand the problems with "DLL Hell", or its equivalent in Linux. I \
made a good living for many years doing Windows tech support. I think that \
flatpaks, snaps and containers are an interesting attempt to solve that \
problem. However, the only result has been to change the appearance. It \
is not gone - it just looks different.
I am - and remain - a committed contrary curmudgeon! :-) I think the real \
answer is to find a Fedora packager and ask them to create a repository \
package for LabPlot 2.8.1.
Thanks, and regards -
--
Bill Gee
On Wednesday, January 6, 2021 4:38:15 AM CST Stefan Gerlach wrote:
> Hi Bill,
>
> i maintain the Flatpak package, so i can hopefully give some answers.
> Flatpak is installing a package inside a sandbox. You don't need a VM to \
> test it. It only needs a few system libraries. The advantage is that you \
> can run the same package on many different systems. The disadvantage is \
> that it brings all libraries it needs (Qt, KDE, etc. in our case), but \
> several apps can use this so called runtime environment. I can check on \
> Fedora if there are problems due to LabPlot running in the Flatpak \
> sandbox. The Z-order or theme problems may also be related to Flatpak \
> settings or missing configuration files. We can check this.
> best
> Stefan
>
> On 05/01/2021 02:33, Bill Gee wrote:
> > Hi Alexander -
> >
> >
[Attachment #3 (unknown)]
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<body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;"><span \
style="font-size:0.92em;">Hi Stefan -</span></p> <br /><p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">I always \
always always test new stuff on a virtual machine before letting it onto my \
main systems. If it blows up, I can revert to a snapshot. On a \
real computer, if it blows up I often have to rebuild from the metal. \
It is a risk not worth taking, and a problem that has bitten me many \
times. It is a lesson I learned the hard way.</p> <br /><p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">The main \
issued I found with the flatpak for LabPlot is that it does not save files \
where I expect it to. I specified "/home/bgee/Documents" as \
the directory. LabPlot reports success. If I save the file \
again, LabPlot reports that the file is already there. However, I \
cannot see the file with any other program! Bash, Krusader, Dolphin \
... None of them see the files I saved out of LabPlot. In my \
mind that is reason enough to not use the flatpak.</p> <br /><p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">There \
may also be problems with themes, icons, fonts etc. I did not test \
for that. The Z-order problem with file-open and file-save dialogs is \
very annoying but not quite a show stopper.</p> <br /><p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">As a \
general philosophy, I still think that flatpaks, snaps and containers are \
imperfect solutions for which no problem exists. Let's assume, for \
example, that I choose to run EVERY application I use as a flatpak. \
That means Firefox, LibreOffice, KMail, KOrganizer, KeePassXC, Audacity \
et.al. Each of them brings in and launches a complete version of \
KDE. None of them is running in the same sandbox, so they cannot see \
each other and use each other's services. If, for example, I click on \
a KMail attachment to open it, does Gwenview open in the same sandbox as \
KMail? If I click on an image in Firefox, does it open the same \
Gwenview instance as the one that KMail launched? If I click on an \
email address in Firefox, does that launch a new instance of KMail or does \
it use the sandbox that is already running?</p> <br /><p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">KeePassXC \
connects into Firefox to provide password filling. If they are \
running in separate sandboxes, then how are they to talk to each \
other? If I make a settings change in the KDE System Settings \
application, how does that get inside all the different KDE sandboxes?</p> \
<br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">And \
if all those applications DO run in the same sandbox, then what's the \
gain? Why not run them in the real environment and save a huge amount \
of both memory and drive space?</p> <br /><p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">I \
understand the problems with "DLL Hell", or its equivalent in \
Linux. I made a good living for many years doing Windows tech \
support. I think that flatpaks, snaps and containers are an \
interesting attempt to solve that problem. However, the only result \
has been to change the appearance. It is not gone - it just looks \
different.</p> <br /><p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">I am - \
and remain - a committed contrary curmudgeon! :-) I think the \
real answer is to find a Fedora packager and ask them to create a \
repository package for LabPlot 2.8.1.</p> <p> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">Thanks, \
and regards - </p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;"><br />-- \
</p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">Bill \
Gee</p> <br /><br /><p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;"><br />On \
Wednesday, January 6, 2021 4:38:15 AM CST Stefan Gerlach wrote:</p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> Hi \
Bill,</p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> \
</p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> \
i maintain the Flatpak package, so i can hopefully give some answers.</p> \
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> \
Flatpak is installing a package inside a sandbox. You don't need a VM to \
test it. It only needs a few system libraries. The advantage is that </p> \
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> \
you can run the same package on many different systems. The disadvantage is \
that it brings all libraries it needs (Qt, KDE, etc. in our case), </p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> but \
several apps can use this so called runtime environment.</p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> I \
can check on Fedora if there are problems due to LabPlot running in the \
Flatpak sandbox. The Z-order or theme problems may also be related to </p> \
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> \
Flatpak settings or missing configuration files. We can check this.</p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> \
</p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> \
best</p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> \
Stefan</p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> \
</p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> \
On 05/01/2021 02:33, Bill Gee wrote:</p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> \
> Hi Alexander -</p> <p \
style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> \
> </p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">> \
> </p> </body>
</html>
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