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List:       kde-edu-devel
Subject:    Re: Fwd: [kde-edu-devel] update on copyright status of catalogs
From:       Javier =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fern=E1ndez-Sanguino_Pe=F1a?= <jfs () computer ! org>
Date:       2003-06-26 20:56:05
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(I'm adding the list in CC: even if I think the discussion has progressed)

On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 11:14:27AM -0400, Jason Harris wrote:
> Hi Javier,
> 
> Your computer.org address bounced, but I wangted to make sure you got this...

Ouch. Could you send me the bounced mail so I can see what's happening in 
computer.org. See my answer below.

> Hello,
(...)
> 
> Doug's reply (Tuesday 03:00 pm EDT):
> : Jason,
> : I think the SAO Catalog is freely usable but not public domain.
> : I have to leave early today, but I'll check the printed volumes
> : in our library tomorrow.
> :
> : -Doug
> 
> Unfortunately, I have not heard back from him.

Yes. Most unfortunate because "freely usable" does not mean a thing really. 
Is not really a proper license. Does this mean that it is free in the 
Debian sense? That is: http://www.debian.org/intro/free. The DFSG do not 
apply _completely_ to data but it would be good if you pointed them to 
this: http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines

> 
> I also contacted the address question@simbad.u-strasbg.fr to ask about data in 
> the CDS repository of astronomical catalogs 
> (http://cdsweb.u-strasbg.fr/cats/Cats.htx):

Great.

> 
> : : Hello,
> : : 
> : : What is the legal copyright status of the data catalogs available from 
(...)
> : : Jason
> 
> I got a reply from Laurent Cambresy on Wednesday at 5:40 am EDT:
> : Dear Jason,
> 
> : Catalogues available at CDS contain scientific data distributed 
> : for free, for a scientific usage. Only the expenses related to 
> : copying and mailing are charged if relevant.

This "for a scientific usage" sounds too much like "No Discrimination
Against Fields of Endeavor"

> : Companies including such data in their commercial products cannot 
> : charge their clients for the data. Furthermore, users must be informed 
> : of the origin of the data: this means an explicit reference to the service 
> : provided by the CDS and also to the original author(s) of each catalogue.
> : 

This, again. Sounds over restrictive (as you say)

> : best regards,
> : Laurent Cambresy
>  
> This isn't clear enough for our purposes, so I asked for a clarification:
(...)
> : Dear Jason,
> : 
> : > KStars itself is absolutely non-commercial; it is part of the
> : > Educational module for KDE, a desktop environment for Linux and 
> : > other Unixes, which is also absolutely non-commercial.  However, 
> : > the GPL does not prohibit other people from distributing my 
> : > program,
> : 
> : That's fine. As long as Kstars itself remains free there is no problem for
> : using any catalogs we have here. Don't forget to mention somewhere 
> : which catalogs you use and their provenance (Hipparcos comes from 
> : ESA, SAO from USNO).  By the way, we would recommend the use of 
> : Hipparcos rather than the SAO catalog. It is more accurate and goes 
> : deeper.

I would say that sounds too much like an exception, that is, he is 
"changing" the license of the data if it works in free software.

> : 
> : best regards,
> : Laurent
> 
> So I think I made it as clear as possible what the consequences of including 
> the catalogs in a GPL'd application might be, and they still have no problem 
> with the inclusion of their catalogs.  

I thank you very much to try to clear this up. But it's still not good (see 
below)

> 
> If this isn't good enough, then I would ask what exactly is the hypothetical 
> situation we are worried about here?  KStars (and other GPL'd astronomy apps) 
> distribute these data catalogs under the GPL, so they cannot legally be made 
> proprietary, even if a company tries to make money by selling a KStars 
> derivative (an extremely remote possibility, IMO, since the derivative would 
> necessarily be GPL'd also).  
> 

I am worried about distributing star data in the distribution and have 
people sue me because they see this data used by a non-free (commercial) 
software which is distributed together with Debian by some commercial
entity (take Lindows or Xandros, for example, which are propietary 
distributions that mix free and non-free software and are based on Debian).

This is an issue, if the data can _only_ be distributed with a GPL program 
then it's not free. Well, not free enough. Since the data and the program 
are, in itself, different entities I want to know the specific license 
which the data is distributed by. I don't mind having astronomical data 
separate from programs and have programs use it if available (that is what 
starplot does in Debian, and spacechart can too). That is ok with me, that 
allows Debian to distribute data in a non-free section (which is not really 
an "official" part of Debian) and programs in the main section.

The question for them would be "can any program use the SAO star data
catalogue? Including modifying it and redistributing it, regardless of
wether the program in question is sold or not?" If the answer is "no", then 
esentially Laurent is giving Kstars (as well as other GPL program) an 
exception from its original license (free for non-commercial purposes). 
Which, unfortunately, leaves Debian's bug #198499 open.

Regards

Javi

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