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List: kde-doc-english
Subject: [kde-doc-english] Fwd: Re: Proposal for how to deal with
From: Duns Ens <dunsens () web ! de>
Date: 2008-08-22 4:25:40
Message-ID: 200808220625.47943.dunsens () web ! de
[Download RAW message or body]
Others are thinking about moving stuff to Docbook wiki as well, see the
forwarded message. Harald Sitter who has pointed out the bad state of
KHelpCenter is also in favour of a wikilike system.
And the argument that instead of discussing this issue, I could do foo better
instead is not related as it is simply none. I don't want to discuss for years
here, but I won't do documentation either as I don't use it (anymore) and I am
mainly fixing code stuff myself, if I am interested in. I wouldn't stop myself
to edit a Wikipage for docs if used some though.
And if you concerned about string freeze than use feature freeze (+one week or
sth.) as the docbook translation freeze instead and backport changes later for
minor releases and fix changed strings once again at string freeze if
necessary. There are enough power users and fans out there using bleeding edge
packages and following commit digests to contribute to the english docs.
To me it sounds not convincing that this problem would stop a more open
approach. It is more like the work for the implementation of a wiki is
avoided. Use one db for current stable and one for the next major release
(trunk).
I simply don't get where the translators issue is tied to the wiki really. The
wiki is not more or less tied to a release cycle than any other content
creation system, but it offers much more contribution, even of KDE people not
being in the docbook team.
Regards.
P.S.: You can always go back to plain Docbook editing in trunk with a wiki
like Docbookwiki if it should really fail.
---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Subject: Re: Proposal for how to deal with documentation issues
Date: Mittwoch, 20. August 2008
From: Randy Kramer <rhkramer@gmail.com>
To: kde-devel@kde.org
On Monday 18 August 2008 09:33 pm, Parker Coates wrote:
--< good stuff snipped so I can forward some related stuff >---
I mentioned earlier that the tldp project is working toward implementing a
wiki which uses and/or generates docbook. They've started by implementing
moin-moin (sp?), but I asked whether they had considered the Docbook wiki.
Among others, I got these responses from Martin Wheeler (C&P'd here to keep
in the same thread) (also, some minor snipping done).
It sounds like the Docbook wiki (or its successor, Docbookeasy) may be worth
considering, despite the (as someone said over on tldp) "overtly religious
message" on the home page--to avoid that, just go to the sourceforge page(s),
e.g.:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=105609
(atm, I can't even find the home page with the religious message, but I'm not
looking very hard)
(Also, don't confuse the Docbook wiki engine / program with the DocBook wiki
(i.e., a wiki, hosted on moinmoin, about Docbook: http://wiki.docbook.org/)
First quoted email:
'
Re: [discuss] DocBook Wiki--was it considered?
From: Martin Wheeler <elided>
To: discuss@en.tldp.org
Date: 08/18/08 06:21 pm
Well folks -- I hate to be the one bringing micturition to the
pyrotechnics, specially when you're so happy and all -- but I've just
installed docbookwiki ['apt-get install docbookwiki'] on one of my servers
and bingo! -- instant working online docbook editor: producing plaintext,
HTML and LaTeX as well. No probs.
[Whereas I'm *still* fighting moinmoin to get it to do what I want.]
That does it for me -- it may not give me all the bells and whistles of
the usual wiki environment (i.e. endless unindexed pages which are hell
on wheels to navigate through); but it *does* provide a collaborative
book-editing environment, which is fundamentally all I want from it.
Perhaps we ought to re-think our strategy a little here -- maybe even have
*two* wikis (docbookwiki for nothing but book-editing; other wiki for the
social chatter and ancillary discussions.)
What do folks think?
(I advise trying out docbookwiki before making up your mind. Seriously.]
'
Second quoted email:
'
Re: [discuss] DocBook Wiki--was it considered?
From: Martin Wheeler
To: Randy Kramer
CC: discuss@en.tldp.org
Date: 08/20/08 06:31 am
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008, Randy Kramer wrote:
> Do you mind if I forward your last post (this one) to the
> kde-devel@kde.org mailing list?
Not at all. Consider anything I write to any public list as being in the
public domain. (If it ain't, I make it *very* clear.)
> I was glad
> to see you take the bull by the horns and try it out.
. . .
> it was easy to install on Debian (to try out), and it seems to work
> reasonably well for editing Docbook.
Yes. The server I installed it on runs Debian testing; and had NO history
of previous docbook toolchains being installed on it. (I've had gross
incompatibility problems caused by cross-interference of differing tools
on other machines before.)
CAVEAT: installing from scratch will take up *half a gigabyte* of disk
space as it puts all the bits and bobs in place.
Anyone who cares to try it will find it at
http://avalonix.co.uk/books/
[terminating slash essential].
Please contact me off-list if you'd like a user/editing ID.
> when you say "i.e. endless unindexed pages
> which are hell on wheels to navigate through" are you referring to the
> situation on the Docbook wiki, or are you referring to wikis in
> general
.. wikis in general. (Usually depends on who writes the pages!)
> i.e., are you saying that the Docbook wiki doesn't have the typical
> wiki navigation features (like links, the Recent Changes page, a search
> function)?
Docbookwiki isn't *really* a wiki.
It's a multi-user, online docbook document editing tool.
(Docbookeasy even more so.)
And it's restricted to XML. (Important for me, as I use a lot of
SGML DTDs, which of course it won't accept, as there's no (easy) way of
changing the DTD being used.)
So don't expect *all* the usual wiki features.
> If there is a problem with navigation, my first thought would be to install
a
> Google dedicated search thingie (like I use on
> Wikilearn--http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Wikilearn/WebSearch).
Oh, it does its own indexing; and has its own search engine -- for tags,
as well as text.
'
End of quoted emails
Randy Kramer
--
"I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I created a video
instead."--with apologies to Cicero, et.al.
>> Visit http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-devel#unsub to unsubscribe
<<
-------------------------------------------------------
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</style></head><body style=" font-family:'FreeSans'; font-size:13pt; font-weight:400; \
font-style:normal;"> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Others are \
thinking about moving stuff to Docbook wiki as well, see the forwarded message. \
Harald Sitter who has pointed out the bad state of KHelpCenter is also in favour of a \
wikilike system. </p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">And the \
argument that instead of discussing this issue, I could do foo better instead is not \
related as it is simply none. I don't want to discuss for years here, but I won't do \
documentation either as I don't use it (anymore) and I am mainly fixing code stuff \
myself, if I am interested in. I wouldn't stop myself to edit a Wikipage for docs if \
used some though.</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">And if you concerned about string freeze than use \
feature freeze (+one week or sth.) as the docbook translation freeze instead and \
backport changes later for minor releases and fix changed strings once again at \
string freeze if necessary. There are enough power users and fans out there using \
bleeding edge packages and following commit digests to contribute to the english \
docs.</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">To me it \
sounds not convincing that this problem would stop a more open approach. It is more \
like the work for the implementation of a wiki is avoided. Use one db for current \
stable and one for the next major release (trunk).</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">I simply don't get where the translators issue is \
tied to the wiki really. The wiki is not more or less tied to a release cycle than \
any other content creation system, but it offers much more contribution, even of KDE \
people not being in the docbook team.</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Regards.</p> <p \
style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p \
style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">P.S.: You can always go back \
to plain Docbook editing in trunk with a wiki like Docbookwiki if it should really \
fail.</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">---------- Forwarded Message ----------</p> <p \
style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p \
style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Subject: Re: Proposal for how \
to deal with documentation issues</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">Date: Mittwoch, 20. August 2008</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">From: Randy Kramer <rhkramer@gmail.com></p> \
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">To: kde-devel@kde.org</p> <p \
style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p \
style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">On Monday 18 August 2008 \
09:33 pm, Parker Coates wrote:</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">--< good stuff snipped so I can forward some related stuff \
>---</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">I mentioned earlier that the tldp project is working toward \
implementing a </p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">wiki which \
uses and/or generates docbook. They've started by implementing </p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">moin-moin (sp?), but I asked \
whether they had considered the Docbook wiki. </p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Among others, I got these responses from Martin \
Wheeler (C&P'd here to keep </p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">in the same thread) (also, some minor snipping done).</p> <p \
style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p \
style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">It sounds like the Docbook \
wiki (or its successor, Docbookeasy) may be worth </p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">considering, despite the (as someone said over on \
tldp) "overtly religious </p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">message" on the home page--to avoid that, just go to the \
sourceforge page(s), </p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">e.g.:</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=105609</p>
<p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">(atm, I can't even find the home page with the religious message, \
but I'm not </p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">looking \
very hard)</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">(Also, don't confuse the Docbook wiki engine / program with the \
DocBook wiki </p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">(i.e., a \
wiki, hosted on moinmoin, about Docbook: http://wiki.docbook.org/)</p> <p \
style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p \
style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">First quoted email:</p> <p \
style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p \
style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">'</p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Re: [discuss] DocBook \
Wiki--was it considered?</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">From: Martin Wheeler <elided></p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"> To: discuss@en.tldp.org</p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"> Date: 08/18/08 06:21 pm</p> \
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"> </p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Well folks -- I hate to be \
the one bringing micturition to the</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">pyrotechnics, specially when you're so happy and all -- but I've \
just</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">installed \
docbookwiki ['apt-get install docbookwiki'] on one of my servers</p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">and bingo! -- instant working \
online docbook editor: producing plaintext,</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">HTML and LaTeX as well. No probs.</p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">[Whereas I'm *still* fighting \
moinmoin to get it to do what I want.]</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">That does it for me -- it may \
not give me all the bells and whistles of</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">the usual wiki environment (i.e. endless \
unindexed pages which are hell</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">on wheels to navigate through); but it *does* provide a \
collaborative</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">book-editing environment, which is fundamentally all I want from \
it.</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">Perhaps we ought to re-think our strategy a little here -- maybe \
even have</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">*two* wikis \
(docbookwiki for nothing but book-editing; other wiki for the</p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">social chatter and ancillary \
discussions.)</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">What do folks think?</p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">(I advise trying out \
docbookwiki before making up your mind. Seriously.]</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">'</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Second quoted email:</p> <p \
style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p \
style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">'</p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Re: [discuss] DocBook \
Wiki--was it considered?</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">From: Martin Wheeler </p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"> To: Randy Kramer </p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"> CC: discuss@en.tldp.org</p> \
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"> Date: 08/20/08 06:31 am</p> \
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"> </p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">On Tue, 19 Aug 2008, Randy \
Kramer wrote:</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; \
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> Do you mind if I forward \
your last post (this one) to the</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">> kde-devel@kde.org mailing list?</p> <p \
style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p \
style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Not at all. Consider \
anything I write to any public list as being in the</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">public domain. (If it ain't, I make it *very* \
clear.)</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">> I was glad</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">> to see you take the bull by the horns and try it out.</p> <p \
style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"> . . .</p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> it was easy to install \
on Debian (to try out), and it seems to work</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> reasonably well for editing Docbook.</p> <p \
style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p \
style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Yes. The server I installed \
it on runs Debian testing; and had NO history</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">of previous docbook toolchains being installed on \
it. (I've had gross</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">incompatibility problems caused by cross-interference of differing \
tools</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">on other \
machines before.)</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">CAVEAT: \
installing from scratch will take up *half a gigabyte* of disk</p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">space as it puts all the bits \
and bobs in place.</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Anyone who cares to try it will find it at</p> <p \
style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p \
style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"> \
http://avalonix.co.uk/books/</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">[terminating slash essential].</p> <p \
style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p \
style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Please contact me off-list if \
you'd like a user/editing ID.</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> when you say "i.e. endless unindexed \
pages</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> which \
are hell on wheels to navigate through" are you referring to the</p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> situation on the Docbook \
wiki, or are you referring to wikis in</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> general</p> <p \
style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p \
style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"> .. wikis in general. \
(Usually depends on who writes the pages!)</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> i.e., are you saying \
that the Docbook wiki doesn't have the typical</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> wiki navigation features (like links, the \
Recent Changes page, a search</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">> function)?</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Docbookwiki isn't *really* a \
wiki.</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">It's a \
multi-user, online docbook document editing tool.</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">(Docbookeasy even more so.)</p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">And it's restricted to XML. \
(Important for me, as I use a lot of</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">SGML DTDs, which of course it won't accept, as \
there's no (easy) way of</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">changing the DTD being used.)</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">So don't expect *all* the usual wiki \
features.</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">> If there is a problem with navigation, my first thought would \
be to install </p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">a</p> <p \
style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">> Google dedicated search \
thingie (like I use on</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; \
margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">> \
Wikilearn--http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Wikilearn/WebSearch).</p> <p \
style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p \
style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Oh, it does its own indexing; \
and has its own search engine -- for tags,</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">as well as text.</p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">'</p> <p style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">End of quoted emails</p> <p \
style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p \
style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Randy Kramer</p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">-- </p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">"I didn't have time to write \
a short letter, so I created a video </p> <p style=" margin-top:0px; \
margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; \
text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">instead."--with apologies to Cicero, et.al.</p> \
<p style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"> </p> <p style=" \
margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">>> Visit \
http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-devel#unsub to unsubscribe <<</p> <p \
style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p \
style="-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; \
margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;"></p> <p \
style=" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; \
-qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; \
-qt-user-state:0;">-------------------------------------------------------</p></body></html>
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