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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: How to configure konqueror to show KB and MB instead of KiB and
From:       Michael Pyne <mpyne () kde ! org>
Date:       2009-07-09 23:04:20
Message-ID: 200907091904.26066.mpyne () kde ! org
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On Thursday 09 July 2009 12:22:37 Michael Howell wrote:
> On Wednesday 08 July 2009 22:40:31 Michael Pyne wrote:
> > So now that the IEC has said so, Arora is leading me astray when it says
> > a file is 64.7 KB?  My flash cards aren't really 4GB?
>
> Not just the IEC. The HD manufacturers also agree.

I buy hard disks maybe once every 2-3 years but I use the computer pretty much 
every day, so I'd say the weighting we give HD manufacturers' opinion should 
be very low no matter what anyways.

> KDE is not doing anything particularly confusing. KDE is *not*, I repeat,
> is *not* using K=1000. It is using Ki=1024. The only unambiguous measure
> the computer industry has.

I know, hence my patch from like two weeks ago (and Michel's before  mine).

> > "decades ago".  I mean, seriously, listen to that.  Right or wrong, the
> > definition of these units are backed up by *decades* of actual usage, so
> > you're going to have a very hard time convincing a lot of people that
> > their values magically changed once some IEC engineers signed a form to
> > issue a new standard.
>
> By that logic, imperial measures should still be used worldwide.

Your analogy is flawed in that the definition of the mile didn't change after 
kilometers were introduced.

> The people designing computers were largely mathematicians. As
> mathematicians, they knew better than to do something as confusing as that.
> Laziness had everything to do with it.

Or maybe they felt it wasn't confusing (because it's not)?

> > > Unfortunately, the meaning of the *B units has become sufficiently
> > > diluted to the point where we now have two equally-passionate groups
> > > of people arguing over what they mean, and for all the messages that
> > > have flown back and forth, we are no closer to agreement.  If
> > > anything, the two sides have become entrenched and I don't see how
> > > further discussion will get us closer to an answer.
> > >
> > > Given the above, I've changed my mind -- I no longer think KDE should
> > > have any units other than the *iB units.  Those are the only units we
> > > seem to be able to agree on.  The meaning of the *B units has been
> > > sufficiently diluted to the point that NO MATTER what definition we
> > > pick, someone will likely misinterpret them.
> >
> > Well there is apparently interest in having real decimal units.  My only
> > real complaint is that it can't (yet) be the "kilobyte".
>
> If computer OS manufacturers used binary measures, correctly represented,
> and HD manufacturers continue using EIC bytes, that sounds like a migration
> to me.

OS manufacturers are way more important than HD manufacturers IMO for the 
reason I listed earlier (although it's kind of orthogonal to the point, some 
OSes use EIC binary anyways).

> > Go out and look on Google or Yahoo about kilobyte being 1024.  You'll
> > find pages telling you to impress your friends with the little-known fact
> > that a kilobyte is 1024 bytes, dozens of articles "explaining" kilobytes,
> > megabytes, etc.  If anything, the unit has become more ubiquitous to mean
> > 1024 in computer applications over time, not less.
>
> If you're interested, you can look it up. Most won't until they see
> something (an extra i, perhaps?).

... that's my point.  When people get interested they will look up KB and see 
that "it means 1024 hur hur hur".

> Showing decimal KB is _not_ what KDE does right now. Right now, KDE uses
> KiB. What is being proposed is a localization feature, where KDE allows the
> user to choose traditional KB, EIC KB, and KiB, just like they can choose
> 12/24 hour clocks and cm/in.

I know, I've been willing to add just that since about 3 days ago (when a 
couple of people spoke up in support of decimal HD-style units) when I 
proposed that we commit Michel's patch as a hidden option for starters and 
then gauge interest in having it added to the GUI.  My concern throughout this 
particular flamewar has been preventing KB from being redefined in the process 
(without the user choosing as much).

> > At the same time it's can't be OK for KDE to do something unprecedented
> > with units on the one hand (1000 byte KB) but not on the other hand
> > (dkB).
>
> Except that KB is sometimes used for 1000. See HD manufacturers. *Nobody*
> uses dkB, making it more unprecedented than 1000 KB.

KDE is supposed to be innovative. See Plasma, KIO, KParts, and Nepomuk. Why 
not be innovative again, and lead the way with unambiguous measures.

> And they can live with 1024-byte kibibytes. Sounds easy enough.

Sure, that's why I haven't once proposed changing away from kibibytes by 
default.

> > But now we still have a disconnect over the old units, so I say we could
> > disambiguate the other way.  Perfect Solomon's logic, we have KiB and
> > then we have kdB.  Actually that could be confused easily with deci-,
> > let's see here... how about ↁ to mean explicitly decimal bytes?  (And
> > from there, kↁ, Mↁ, Gↁ, etc.)  (In case it doesn't show up, it's code
> > point U+2181, Roman numeral five thousand, which looks to me vaguely like
> > a D-within-a-D).
>
> If you really want to, lets use KdB. Simple enough.

I want everyone to be happy, world peace, kids to have food to eat every 
night. :)

My proposal for KdB was in that regard half-snarky and only a little bit 
serious.  Do I mind if we have an option that makes KB == 1000?  No, but I 
want it to be non-default and I really do think it's a better idea to have 
specific units for the same reason it was a good idea to come up with KiB.  
I'll admit this is different from where I started my proposal (when I opposed 
the idea completely) since I haven't come across decimal units I had thought 
people didn't want them, but were instead trying to subvert my patch.

What I absolutely don't want is people telling me that we can't offer 1024 KB 
as an option because some committee said so when they contravenes current 
industry practice.

> > But less snarkily if you take one thing away from this email, let it be
> > this: Right now KB predominantly means, regardless of what IEC and SI may
> > /want/, 1024 bytes.  It would not be good form for KDE to be the project
> > to throw grenades at their users (some of whom have used 1024 byte KBs
> > for years if not actually decades).  With the introduction and gradual
> > uptake of -ibibytes then perhaps it's something that can be rethought at
> > the KDE 5 or 6 timeframe but now is not the time to make the switch.
>
> KDE is supposed to be innovative. See Plasma, KIO, KParts, and Nepomuk. Why
> not be innovative again, and lead the way with unambiguous measures.

I can simply retype what I said but I'm not sure how to phrase better the 
concept of not screwing over our users.

> > If enough users want the decimal units then there's no reason not to
> > allow it, but I don't want us to get caught showing KB meaning 1000 when
> > the user thinks it means 1024 so it needs to be very clear.  After all,
> > users have taken hard disk manufacturers to court over just this very
> > topic.
>
> Which is exactly why we should use KiB. Let them choose traditional or EIC
> KB, but let's use a sane and unambiguous measure by default.

We do use KiB.  I have not one mentioned changing that default away.

Regards,
 - Michael Pyne

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