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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: Techical Reason Why Konqueror File Management Engine Can't be
From:       Andrew Mason <slackmase2 () gmail ! com>
Date:       2009-07-04 6:14:31
Message-ID: 99cd336d0907032302s75ce720bp34db054820f015b6 () mail ! gmail ! com
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"You are 100% correct there.  The problem is that the KDE project is run
 by self taught hackers and they simply do not have the same mindset as
 engineers do."

I am not sure where you got this info from but this is no where near
correct. Have a look at the profiles for the major contributors and
tell me which of them are self taught. Even if you ignore the commits
from the nokia / trolltech guys.

Furthermore, if you had actually bothered to look into the code you
would see that KDE (esp KDE4) is one of the cleanest / neatest code
bases that your likely to encounter, especially given the size of the
project.

On 7/2/09, James Richard Tyrer <ksu258@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Please note that despite the use of a middle initial that 'DCR' is NOT
> 'JRT'.
>
> David C. Rankin wrote:
>> Listmates,
>>
>> Is there some reason the konqueror file management engine ( "backend"
>>  or whatever you want to call it) in kde4 cannot be restored to the
>> kde3 konqueror file manager engine instead of the dolphin backend?
>> There are numerous basic problems with band-aiding the dolphin engine
>>  as the backend for konqueror file management that make it very very
>> frustrating to work with. You cannot even make konqueror behave like
>> konqueror since it now shares setting with dolphin.
>>
> While I admire your enthusiasm, you do need to tone it down a bit
> without losing your passion for excellence. (Tom Peters would be proud
> of you!).
>
> I have to tell you that this is not the proper list to discuss these
> issues.  This list of for: "For discussion of all KDE-related
> development issues" but developers are more specific that it is for
> discussions of how to write code although it wanders off of that track
> fairly often.
>
> You should have probably posted this to the 'KDE<kde@mail.kde.org>'
> list.  You probably still should after you remove any accusations.  KDE
> has a high standard of political correctness and there is a committee
> that monitors what we say. :-)
>
> But seriously, good engineering practice requires that you limit your
> discussion to objective issues and not speculate on why.  Clearly state
> what you think is wrong and how you would improve it.  Be prepared to
> defend your position in an argument.  But defend it only with facts.
>
> Actually, there isn't a proper list to post this to.  No list to discuss
> bugs in general. ?
>
> <SNIP>
>>
>> There were reasons that the konqueror file management backend worked
>> the way it did and now all the efficiency and elegance of that engine
>>  has gone up in smoke because somebody had the cute idea to break
>> konqueror to make dolphin instead of being smart about it and leaving
>>  konqueror as konqueror.
>
> First you need to know that there is no Konqueror that is a file
> manager.  Konqueror is little more than a shell that runs plugins
> (called KParts).  The old (KDE-3) file manager which is correctly called
> KFM was actually a set of 2 KParts one for icon view and one for list
> view.  I have to agree that I liked them better than the current state
> of the DolphinPart.
>
> However, I see no reason why filemanagement in Konqueror can't be just
> as good with the DolphinPart, it is just a question of implementation.
> Some simplification was probably a good idea, but I do not agree with
> some of the design decisions -- although I do think that Dolphin is
> excellent work, it can still use some work.
>
> <SNIP>
>>
>> I'm doing my best to understand why all of this stuff is still broken
>>  on the eve of the .3 release,
>
> I am also at a total loss to understand this.  My best theory is that
> something has gone terribly wrong with the corporate culture of KDE, or
> that the KDE project has simply become too big to be run on the
> principle of constructive anarchy.
>
>> and I am doing my best to help fix it (38 bug reports in 30 days),
>> but I must tell you it is very frustrating to have developers take
>> the position that "yes, we know what you could do with konqueror in
>> kde3, we know you can't now, but that isn't a 'bug', that is a
>> 'wishlist' item." Huh??
>>
> I see this as part of to politicization of the bug process.  The way
> BugZilla works, if they close a bug which you reported, you can reopen
> it.  However, if they change it to a "wish list" there is nothing that
> you can do about it.
>
>> Is mediocrity the new gold standard for kde? With kde3 shut down, one
>>  would think more emphasis would be placed on making sure its
>> functionality at least existed in kde4 as a priority and not simply
>> an afterthought.
>>
> I don't think that there is any intent to have a mediocre product.  That
> said, someone wise said that 'if you are willing to accept poor quality,
> that is what you can expect'.
>
> <SNIP>
>
>> We all have to same goal of helping make kde4 "the desktop" for Linux
>>  and one by which all others are measured. If we are going to
>> succeed, more attention has to be placed on making sure it is usable
>> and that the basic expected things work. Now fixing the way konqueror
>> works may not be a glamorous as coding the new "plasma", but if the
>> simple things don't work, nobody is going to care how good it looks.
>>
>
> You are 100% correct there.  The problem is that the KDE project is run
> by self taught hackers and they simply do not have the same mindset as
> engineers do.
>
> <SNIP>
>
> What you see in the answers from the KDE developers is indicative of the
> problem.  There is a corporate culture which includes a set of beliefs
> -- a belief system [BS] if you will.  This BS includes a set of canned
> excuses (or dodges) as to why things don't get done.
>
> Would it help to send them all a copy of a Tom Peters book?
>
> Well, that is interesting but the fact is that things haven't gotten
> done and the person in charge (or at least the head of the project, AJS)
> needs to figure out:
>
> 1.	Why things haven't gotten done.
>
> 2.	How to see that they do get done.
>
> Discussion of those issues probably belongs on the:
> KDE-Quality<kde-quality@kde.org> list.
>
> And I note that you should always remember the prime principal of
> eXtreme Programing: it is all about the users.  Remember that without
> users, there would be no reason for the KDE project.
>
> And might I mention:
>
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=197715
>
> I notice that it hasn't been resolved yet.
>
> --
> James Tyrer
>
> Kde Sudo User +1
>
>
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>
 
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