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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: The Pure KDE Desktop
From:       Per Edin <per.programmering () telia ! com>
Date:       2002-10-11 17:27:25
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On Friday 11 October 2002 14.43, David Leimbach wrote:
> On Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 11:31 PM, Steve Hutton wrote:
> > Some of you may have noticed there is a lot of noise lately
> > days about Unix desktops.  First, Red Hat has finally dared to
> > say publicly that a Linux based desktop is possible, and
> > of course they have released a version of their distribution
> > that attempts to present a "unified" look and feel.  From the
> > KDE perspective, it's a bit disapointing (though not at all
> > suprising) that this look and feel is not the KDE look and feel.
>
> Sure... I think the issue is really blown up more than it needs to be.
> If RedHat would call their KDE something like "RedHat KDE" I would
> be happier but there has been way too much said on this topic IMO.
>
> > Secondly, there has been quite a lot of press lately [1, 2] about Mac
> > OS X, including stories about Linux users jumping ship.  I find
> > this particularly troubling - when highly technical users are
> > giving up on the free Unix desktop, what hope do we have at ever
> > making the average user happy?
>
> Heh... I am writing this reply on my shiny new Mac OS X desktop.
> I wouldn't say I have given up hope on a great free Unix desktop.
> I think it already exists.  The real world I live in though requires
> MS Office and absolutely nothing out there can hand Word .doc
> as well [badly perhaps?] as Word.  Even the CrossOver Office
> crapped out on occasion but it is certainly the closest I have ever been
> to perfect Word compatibility [because it IS Word] on a Free Desktop.
>
> If we could take the business world back about 10-15 years and bring in
> linux
> and WordPerfect we would already have the perfect average user's
> desktop in
> KDE or some alternative offering.  For years my mother's office was
> WordPerfect
> only ... for DOS and actually I believe they were indeed more efficient
> then without
> all this GUI crap... I should note that since she has had to grab the
> mouse for pulldown
> menus her Words Per Minute has dropped horribly... In fact WordPerfect
> was a degradation
> of her "pure typewriter" skills as well.... who knows.... maybe we are
> going backwards.
Yeah, sure we are, who really needs all those fancy colors and menus. I 
satisfy with fluxbox and before i only used TWM.

>
> As a software developer I find KDE just as well suited to the tasks as
> OS X or any other
> desktop.  I am fairly Window Manager agnostic in this respect since I
> use Emacs but
> I admit ... Kate ROX!!!!  [I have also committed code to Kate in a very
> small fashion and find
> the KDE frameworks to be a really nice development system.]
>
> > So, how does KDE fit into all of this?
> >
> > In his original project announcement [3], almost exactly 6 years
> > ago, Matthias Ettrich wrote:
> >
> > "Unix popularity grows thanks to the free variants, mostly Linux.
> > But still a consistant, nice looking free desktop-environment is
> > missing."
> >
> > On many levels KDE has been a spectacular success at delivering
> > this environment.  IMHO the KDE environment is the best available.
> > The remaining problem I see is that "Linux", in the form that most
> > users
> > are presented with, still does not have a consistant user interface.
> > Again,
> > quoting from the project announcement -
> >
> > "So one of the major goals is to provide a modern and common look&feel
> > for
> > all the applications. And this is exactly the reason, why this project
> > is
> > different from elder attempts."
> >
> > Of course different distributions are better than others about
> > this, but these days almost everyone ends up running Mozilla,
> > OpenOffice, and perhaps other apps that are just perceived as
> > "nicer" in some respect than their KDE alternatives.
>
> Its just a question of functionality why people run alternatives.
> Personally I don't
> have a need for anything but konqueror... KWord is great as an end in
> itself but
> does not interoperate with my business world well so I must use MS
> Office.
>
> Perhaps people run Mozilla because the project is dedicated to one goal
> of making
> what people used to know as Netscape [which was no doubt a really nice
> browser up
> until version 3.0 and beyond :)] the best browser ever.... Konqueror is
> a mixture of KDE
> components and they may not feel it agrees with what they need or
> want... Personally
> I think Konqueror is superior because of the ability to have URL
> shortcuts and man/info
> page browsing... Its the best integrated application into the KDE
> environment and takes
> advantage of code from KIOSlave, editors, and other parts....  I think
> KDE really shines here.
>
> Its not my choice but its the way it is.
>
> Ok... some people don't run KDE stuff *because*
> 1) It's KDE and KDE is "icky" [no logical reason... they like GNOME or
> some other desktop and
>       have religious attatchments]
> 2) Its C++ and they are under the illusion that C++ isn't a good
> language or
>       capable of being fast... I invite these people to try KDE on
> FreeBSD where it is simply the
>       fastest loading compared to any Linux I have yet to run on my
> machine [Conectiva being a
>       really close second]
> 3) They actually don't like it... You cannot possibly please everyone
> [at least these people
>       have a valid reason for not using it]
>
> > Red Hat's Blue Curve simply concedes this environment.  Of course,
> > it is destined to fail in providing anything more than a superficially
> > consistant UI.  Any KDE user knows that many many KDE features simply
> > will not work the same in a user's non-KDE apps - single/double click
> > control, file dialog, print system, icon effects, etc.  Needless
> > to say the resulting UI experience has no chance to compete with
> > Mac OS X.
>
> Superficially consistent is a weird idea to me... Why even provide a
> choice of desktops
> if they all look and feel the same damn way?  They may as well
> standardize on one desktop
> that does what they want or take one desktop and make it do what they
> want but call it something
> else...
>
> KDE probably doesn't have the luxury of protecting its name like Linus
> has take on for
> himself to protect Linux.  Linux is a registered trademark of Linus
> Torvalds.... I am no lawyer
> but doesn't this mean he can claim a sufficiently "broken, in his eyes"
> Linux derivative is not
> able to use the Linux name?  Shouldn't KDE protect its "brand" in the
> same manner?  RedHat
> does it too... I can't make a RedHat derivative and use the RedHat name
> either.
>
> > Note that one day apps might not have been written as a KDE
> > apps in order to support all the important KDE features.  Matthias
> > has suggested a QT/KDE bridge library [3] that might handle this for
> > QT apps.  In theory similar libraries might add (a subset of?)
> > KDE features to apps originally written in other libraries ("Extern
> > C" anyone?)  Then there is the toolkit conversion technique
> > demonstrated by the gimp->kimp port.
> >
> > So I ask you, how far away are we from a "Pure KDE" desktop - a
> > complete collection of apps that are good enough to make users
> > and distributers create an environment with nothing but fully
> > functional KDE apps?  If KOffice had complete MS file filters
> > (perhaps just by converting to OpenOffice format?), what else
> > would we still need?
>
> Even OpenOffice cannot get the fonts right... I still won't be able to
> use it
> professionally as a result.... It would be better though.  I don't
> think people
> really understand the nasty stranglehold Bill has on our nutz as a
> result of
> the horribly ubiquitous Office.
>
> > And here's a big question for all of us...in the old days people
> > converting from Windows to Linux often "sacrificed" by giving
> > up their favorite apps for Linux versions that were maybe not
> > as good...are we doing that for KDE, focusing on making the final
> > missing pieces better?  Is anyone running a pure KDE desktop now?
> > If not, why?
>
> I think the Office people are doing a hell of a job considering the
> amount
> of developer resources they have and time/money as well.  The problem is
> compatibility with co workers and customers.  I am involved in a lot of
> research
> related work [DARPA, government contracts... etc]  I have to conform to
> what the
> customer wants... its not about my freedom and how happy I am... Its
> doing everything
> in my power to make sure I do the best job for my customer that I
> can.... If they want Word
> I must use Word.  Its really that easy.  I don't think any alternatives
> are good enough for
> my customer to not have to deal with messy output.
>
> What would be nice is if a customer DEMANDED that I use KDE and
> DEMANDED that
> that I use KWord... What a nice change of pace that would be....  This
> means getting the
> young kids in highschool and college to use Free Software and learn it
> so when they grow
> up they form organizations with what they know in terms of tools and
> software... only then
> will I be able to use these tools on a daily basis.
>
> See... its never about my personal choice.... and therein lies the
> dilemma and the biggest problem
> we face...  All you have to do to take over the world is read about how
> Bill did it...  Assimilation is mandatory,
> resistance is futile :)
>
> > Steve
> >
> > [1] Flirting With Mac OS X
> > http://www.byte.com/documents/s=7620/byt1032475416823/
> >
> > [2] Mac OS X Switcher Stories
> > http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2002/08/21/switch.html
> >
> > [3] New Project: Kool Desktop Environment (KDE)
> > http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
> > 8&selm=53tkvv%24b4j%40newsserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de
> >
> > [4] Matthias Ettrich: Integrating Qt Apps with KDE
> > http://dot.kde.org/1011736961/
> >
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-- 
Yours Faithfully,
Per Edin

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